My idea for Soviet Vet

[Renas]

The Soviets would have to buy vet like the Wehrmacht, but instead of buying it for a group of units like Infantry, Tanks, etc. like the Wehrmacht does it would buy vet for a specific unit type like Conscripts, Mortar teams, T-34 and so forth.  Vet would be bought in the armoury instead of the unit upgrades we have now.

Since the  costs of vet for individual unit types can't be as big as for unit groups, a fast conscript vet rush could be devastating for the Axis opponent. To prevent potential overpoweredness, the soviets could only buy a specific level of vet when the have built the respective number of main buildings, for example:
vet1 requires the Red Army Mustering Tent, vet2 - Soviet Support Barracks or Tank Hall, vet3 - Soviet Support Barracks and Tank Hall.

Here are some of my ideas for vet, the numerical values are pretty abstract because I can't talk about balance until I see the 1.5 changelog.

Conscripts:

Vet1 - Basic provisions. ~150 Manpower, ~15 Fuel.
Gives every squad member a rifle.
Vet2 - Basic Training. ~200 Manpower, ~20 Fuel.
Recieved accuracy decreased by 10-20%,increased HP by 10-20% increased capping speed to that of US Riflemen (this would require that Conscripts start with a base capping speed of 1).
Vet3 - Advanced provisions. ~250 Manpower, ~25 Fuel.
Gives the squad Molotov cocktails, increased HP by another 20-30%, replaces one member of the squad with a Commissar. The Commissar can use a "Break suppression" ability that breaks all suppression and makes the squad immune to supression for 10-15 seconds, but makes the squad move at only 25-35% of their normal speed.

This would make the Conscripts scale into the late game as cheap, fast harassment unit, that with the "Break suppression" ability can capture points under MG fire for those "down to the last VP" games.


I'll add more when I think of something. Awaiting constructive criticism.

[Cranialwizard]

Very interesting concept, I like this.

Does, for the conscripts, any Vet increase pop cap?

My idea for the Ostheer consisted of 3 availible upgrades for bonuses like health(Armor too), speed, and damage.

If you chose one for Vet 1, like damage, you can't chose it for Vet 2 or 3. So now you can only choose Speed or Health for Vet 2.

If you choose Speed for Vet 2, you HAVE to choose health for vet 3.

Also, the upgrades are better at Vet 3.
For example:
Vet 1 Health:+10%
Vet 3 Health:+40%

I like the system you have established

[Jozz]

Remember that the wehrmacht dont buy 50% more health as vet either, 140hp stormtroopers wtf?

[Paciat]

Whats the point of having vet 3 Constripts. They would be like non upgraded vet 0 Strelky.

You pay 50MP to train Constripts so they become regural rifleman. Thats Soviet vet.

Also whats the point of having 3 upgrades to T-70 and another 3 upgrades to T-90? Noone would use it anyway.

Players would spam 1 unit even more than they do now. Every game would look the same. Soviets get cheap vet 3 (1 unit would be cheaper than Wehrmacht group vet) for 1 type of infantry and 1 type of tank and spam units that are better trained than germans.

What would Soviets need ammo for if Constript rifle upgrade was gained from vet?

[Loupblanc]

 I agree with Paciat.
 Veterancy 3 should switch unit to next level infantry.
 Conscript vet3 become Strelsky vet 0, and so forth
 

[Cranialwizard]

 I agree with Paciat.
 Veterancy 3 should switch unit to next level infantry.
 Conscript vet3 become Strelsky vet 0, and so forth

After reviewing the idea and it's opinions, I come to the same conclusions.

The whole total "Get all Rifles" thing is kinda bugging me.

And for LoupBlanc's idea, I understand, it's pretty smart.

But some players (Like me) Keep a diverse division of PPSH-41 Strelky, and Guards, for assault, and DP-28 Strelky for Defense.

I use Conscripts for Building, Outpost, and Trench fillers. They make good free rifle firers.

They also suffice for full combat in beginning stages.

Getting rid of Conscripts to get strelky would MAJORLY piss me off, unless the pop cap stayed the same. I'd stay Strelky lvl 3 all day XD

[Blackbishop]

The Soviets would have to buy vet like the Wehrmacht, but instead of buying it for a group of units like Infantry, Tanks, etc. like the Wehrmacht does it would buy vet for a specific unit type like Conscripts, Mortar teams, T-34 and so forth...

I've been thinking about a concept like that, what about if units buy vet like buy an upgrade on a unit . I mean, for example, if a panzer grenadier, would benefit from this it would look like:

with the fourth one being the veterancy to buy. But devs already have changed the way to play soviets, maybe this wouldn't be necessary for them, but for ostheer maybe.

[Renas]

Whats the point of having vet 3 Constripts. They would be like non upgraded vet 0 Strelky.

You pay 50MP to train Constripts so they become regural rifleman. Thats Soviet vet.

Also whats the point of having 3 upgrades to T-70 and another 3 upgrades to T-90? Noone would use it anyway.

Players would spam 1 unit even more than they do now. Every game would look the same. Soviets get cheap vet 3 (1 unit would be cheaper than Wehrmacht group vet) for 1 type of infantry and 1 type of tank and spam units that are better trained than germans.

What would Soviets need ammo for if Constript rifle upgrade was gained from vet?

Who said they would be like non upgraded strelky? only the devs know the changes that will be made in 1.1...
And besides, the idea I was pushing for is that conscripts would be the main cappers of the Soveits and vet would enhance not only their combat but also their capping abilities, so the 3-5 squds of conscripts don't become obsolete once strelky hit the field. The strelky vet would be the backbone of the infantry forces throughout the game and the guards would be the expensive elites hock infantry.

[Paciat]

Who said they would be like non upgraded strelky? only the devs know the changes that will be made in 1.1...
And besides, the idea I was pushing for is that conscripts would be the main cappers of the Soveits and vet would enhance not only their combat but also their capping abilities, so the 3-5 squds of conscripts don't become obsolete once strelky hit the field. The strelky vet would be the backbone of the infantry forces throughout the game and the guards would be the expensive elites hock infantry.

So  you want to change everything so Soviets will be less unique and more similar to germans...

...and you dindnt anwser:

Also whats the point of having 3 upgrades to T-70 and another 3 upgrades to T-90? Noone would use it anyway.

What would Soviets need ammo for if Constript rifle upgrade was gained from vet?

[Renas]

Who said they would be like non upgraded strelky? only the devs know the changes that will be made in 1.1...
And besides, the idea I was pushing for is that conscripts would be the main cappers of the Soveits and vet would enhance not only their combat but also their capping abilities, so the 3-5 squds of conscripts don't become obsolete once strelky hit the field. The strelky vet would be the backbone of the infantry forces throughout the game and the guards would be the expensive elites hock infantry.

So  you want to change everything so Soviets will be less unique and more similar to germans...

...and you dindnt anwser:

Also whats the point of having 3 upgrades to T-70 and another 3 upgrades to T-90? Noone would use it anyway.

What would Soviets need ammo for if Constript rifle upgrade was gained from vet?

Well yeah, look how uniqe the Soviets are now:
No retreat, no vet, no unit preservation. Three CORE MECHANIKS of COH thrown out the window. Teching with munitions, free abilities. Have you ever asked yourself why no good COH players play this mod? Because it lacks everything that made COH great in the first place.

As for t-90s and t-70s. No one with half a brain would waste fuel to buy vet for both of them in the same 1v1 game. Thats the whole point. You can CHOOSE which units to upgrade. You buy the vet on the units that you are using.

As for spammability, thats up to the devs. If they make the units versatile in every aspect (aka. Shcok Guards), then expect them to be spammed. But if you make the faction more about combined arms and give every unit a specific role on the battlefield.

[Paciat]

Well yeah, look how uniqe the Soviets are now:
No retreat, no vet, no unit preservation. Three CORE MECHANIKS of COH thrown out the window.
Teching with munitions, free abilities. Have you ever asked yourself why no good COH players play this mod? Because it lacks everything that made COH great in the first place.

Whats great about not being original?
Whats great about making a fraction that brings nothing new to the game?
Whats great about communist Soviets that are allmost the same as fascist Germans?

COH is great becouse the armies are unique. Every fraction should be played different.

Youre "good COH players" probably cant stand that some Soviet infantry need to be sacrificed and that mortar one shot kills their invisible PAKs and MGs.  They just want to use their old tactics on a new army.

Sure, you can say that Soviets are unbalanced (as much as British) but most of the forum dosnt want mirror games.
When I first saw EF on youtube it was still in development stage. I saw 3 types of infantry (like wehrmacht), sniper team (OP sniper), Soviet 57mm,  T-34 (sherman), T-70 (M-8), T-90 (Puma), IS-2 (Panther) and Soviet infantry gaining vet like US troops.
I asked myself "why do I need this OP mode that will change my original game (I didnt know that it will be an add on) if I have all of that in the vanilla COH?"

As for t-90s and t-70s. No one with half a brain would waste fuel to buy vet for both of them in the same 1v1 game. Thats the whole point. You can CHOOSE which units to upgrade. You buy the vet on the units that you are using.

Noone would even tech up 1 of these tanks to vet 2.
Soviets are about mass infantry, medium, heavy tanks and artillery. Thats how it was in WWII and thats how everybody likes it.

[Zerstörer]

Soviets are about mass infantry, medium, heavy tanks and artillery. Thats how it was in WWII and thats how everybody likes it.

Clearly not true...

Also this IS the major problem of the faction.... All you do is spam units without using core machanics/tactics of COH and hope you don't run out of resources before your opponent gives up. Its dull, inimaginative, boring and broken.
And this, is something we're fixing there are no two ways about it...


I would also like to add that 'top competitive players' never really play any mod whatsoever...its simply not part of their 'nature' to play anything other than the basic game regardless of how good a mod may be. We could balance the soviets better than any relic faction, yet I guarantee you they still won't play it.

[Paciat]

Also this IS the major problem of the faction.... All you do is spam units without using core machanics/tactics of COH and hope you don't run out of resources before your opponent gives up. Its dull, inimaginative, boring and broken.

Its just like spamming vet 3 Panthers or Panther battlegroups...
But sure, there sould be a IS-2 unlock upgrade or KV85(Churchill armor)->IS-2 upgrade.
If any tank should be spammed by Soviets it should be T-34.

[wordsmith]

I would also like to add that 'top competitive players' never really play any mod whatsoever...its simply not part of their 'nature' to play anything other than the basic game regardless of how good a mod may be. We could balance the soviets better than any relic faction, yet I guarantee you they still won't play it.

IMO best players don't play EF simply because lack of ranking. For such player it is most important to be highly ranked and since EF doesn't rank they have no reason to play... sure they play for fun too but they also want to show everyone they're good. And this they can't achieve with no ranking system.

No recrew possibility would be second thing such player miss, then vet system and last no-retreat ability...

[Renas]

Also this IS the major problem of the faction.... All you do is spam units without using core machanics/tactics of COH and hope you don't run out of resources before your opponent gives up. Its dull, inimaginative, boring and broken.

Its just like spamming vet 3 Panthers or Panther battlegroups...
But sure, there sould be a IS-2 unlock upgrade or KV85(Churchill armor)->IS-2 upgrade.
If any tank should be spammed by Soviets it should be T-34.

For your information, no one spams vet3 panthers. Panthers are insanely expensive and preform way below par against infantry. One panther is a huge investment and would only pay off if your opponent is spamming shermans, which doesn't happen because the ninja Pak supported by shreks obliterates US armor. Therefore, a panther or, heaven forbid, more than one is a bad, bad, bad investment. Buying vet for your panthers is even worse. If you are planning this kind of strategy in a 1v1 you might as well not even start the game even if you are playing against a semi-braindead opponent.

Sure, you can say that Soviets are unbalanced (as much as British) but most of the forum dosnt want mirror games.
When I first saw EF on youtube it was still in development stage. I saw 3 types of infantry (like wehrmacht), sniper team (OP sniper), Soviet 57mm,  T-34 (sherman), T-70 (M-8), T-90 (Puma), IS-2 (Panther) and Soviet infantry gaining vet like US troops.
I asked myself "why do I need this OP mode that will change my original game (I didnt know that it will be an add on) if I have all of that in the vanilla COH?"

Just because there are 3 types of infantry doesn't mean they are the exact same as their Wehr counterparts. For example, MP40 upgraded Volks become excellent flankers or counter-flankers and scale well into the mid-late game. Conscripts are cannon fodder even with the upgrade. Strelky don't have any AT unlike the grens which are devastating against alied tanks. Guards are tough, versatile baddasses, but don't have the short range anti-infantry punch that the Knight's Cross have. Calling the T-34 a Sherman clone is unfair, as the T-34 falls into the same "medium tank" category as the Sherman, Panzer 4 and Cromwell. Almost every faction has their respective medium tank and the only faction that doesn't have one is the PE (which is why they are considered underpowered, as they lack a meat shield unit).The T-90 is not a Puma. Not even remotely simmilar to a Puma. First off, the T-90 is immune to small arms fire, and, more importantly, the T-90 has suppression, something the puma does not and therefore fills a support role on the battlefield, while the puma is a shock unit. The Panther and the IS-2 are also different. Just because they are heavy tanks doesn't make them the same. First off, the Panther is one of the fastest tanks in the game, the IS-2 is very slow. The panther performs badly against infantry, while the IS-2 is excellent against both armour and infantry.

With all due respect, your understanding of COH and even your beloved Soviet faction if very shallow and I advise you gain some experience before poking your eyes into balance discussions. Don't take this personaly