OFFICIAL POLL: Removing the original factions plus adding in retreat and vet

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

That's all well and good, when/if that time comes we can take advantage of the fixed issues and improve things further.(as per the response its not like they're unaware of these..)

But we can't just sit and pray for another couple of years while they make up their minds.
Its about fixing things with what is now available to us, so we won't hit bottom and then have to try and crawl all the way back up

Think anyone will hold the team back of doing something or program "an other solution".
But a letter wont change the situation for the worse 

[SavageWorld]

I voted for removing the relic factions, primaraly because I think being able to play automacth would give new life to the mode with is needed it. In addition all the Brits haters would begin to play the mode and their is like a million of them.
The downside is that you can't play Pe vs Russia.

Is it possible to make a version where you have Brit and PE + Russia? If it is than you could have all possible macth-ups with three versions of the game.

tl;dr awesome idea go for it

[Zerstörer]

I voted for removing the relic factions, primaraly because I think being able to play automacth would give new life to the mode with is needed it. In addition all the Brits haters would begin to play the mode and their is like a million of them.
The downside is that you can't play Pe vs Russia.

Is it possible to make a version where you have Brit and PE + Russia? If it is than you could have all possible macth-ups with three versions of the game.

tl;dr awesome idea go for it

Until we implement Ostheer fully, the matchup will be US/Soviets/PE/WH

There is a possibility we might be able to do it so you choose EF vs COH or EF vs OF.

[redtail666]

Recrewing weapons and retreating is a bad trade off, if it cost 2 whole factions.  Learn to use to other armies, instead of doing the same old thing over and over, just because it's easy.

[NomadWarriorSoul]

I came from GR.org after reading a post there asking people's opinions.

The basic gist of most of the replies there was that Brits and PE are basically broken for different reasons in comparison to US and Wehr factions, so why even ask about replacing them to get the functionality the dev team wants from the factions.  (Seriously... read the replies there, I'm not exaggerating.)

Might I suggest making a true poll there, as there is a large skilled playerbase there mostly aware of the design and balance issues that exist in the current version of CoH, but they might not be motivated enough to come here and register to vote...

[Trumanator]

Seriously, if the options are full functionality + removal of brits vs some functionality and still having brits the choice is obvious.  Brits are broken anyway, removing them would be a blessing to the game. 

Also, for the Ostheer I understand that it might be very important to have recrewing available.  Therefore since it's probably going to be necessary to replace factions anyway you might as well start now.

[Panzer4life]

Ok, i don't think Relic will help out this mod for one reason; they are a company. if they can make a buck making a game instead of helping a mod, they will go for the game. A company needs to have money flowing in order to stay afloat, especially in times like these. So, that is that.

on the idea that you could choose whether you want to play EF-COH or Ef-OF, i liked the idea. It allows the players to play how they want. honestly, i play the Ef-COH just because i like the wher/Us better than i do the PE/British.

[luz777]

This mod is in no way dead, like said above its got the 4th largest amounts of hits on Moddb, surely that speaks about the mod more than the people who just complain and spout rubbish, the same with any mod.

I honestly think that if you put a slow trickle balance tweaks, bugfixes, reward units and Ostheer teasers out it would get people playing again. Especially with another big balanced release for the Ost (I know it wasn't your guys fault last time).

Then again I realise that the majority of the hardcore CoH community aren't going to be happy unless they get the OF factions removed, automatch back and the oh so precious ranking.

Losing two factions, even for recrewing, is not worth it to me, although clearly there is a good deal of support for it.

Also having versions of Vanilla CoH, EF-CoH and EF-OF would possibly split the player base even more than it is now.

Ugggh important descisions 

[Zerstörer]

The mod isn't dead in that we, the modders, are still here fighting for it to get the interest back.

I logged online against last night and guess how many games of EF were on....same as yesterday and most of the week...aka none.

We were rank 11, now 8 in moddb. That shows a certain interest still exists thankfully, but people are still not playing it. They're waiting for things to get fixed and that's what we're trying to do.
A quick look on the Announcements Section and the Eastern Front release threads and patches and you'll notice how many people have been asking for the fixes we're putting up the poll for.

[Westoffensive]

... our Lead Developer ...

...  our old Lead Developer ...

Yeah, this easy.
-
(sarcasm on)
Sorry folks but this isn´t the fault of the team because our old Lead Developer was a blockhead and we couldn´t argue at him that there are still too many open issues left.
(sarcasm off)
-
You cannot imagine how often I have heard such excuses in real life. It is absolutely unnecessary to know anything about your team to understand that you are facing problems which might be caused by your old lead developer.
Why don´t you concentrate on the amazing work you´ve already done and find a way out of this mess instead of making (imo) another mistake? If you will change the non existing vet system and recrewing function to the soviets all the claims about balance and all the early problems you dealt with until now will start over again. The soviets are fine working as they are.

This is why I said your thoughts are moving in the wrong direction.

What Philosophy? Being tied down to some unwritten rule that holds back progress? We implemented a new faction, bravo, but we also encountered the problems that come with that. You think recrewing would be out if there wasn't a bug? Of course it wouldn't.

To be honest - an unwritten rule is the same as Philosophy and your unwritten rule/philosophy was to implement a new faction without any changings to the original CoH.
You should be proud instead of worsen you. You did an awesome work and all I wanted to say is that you only have to improve some intricacies of your mod. This is what relic does over years now.
I really do not understand why you are saying the progress is hold back. EF is fully playable and most of us enjoy playing your mod. But if you read between the lines you might gain problems with your Ostheer concepts. Maybe the Ostheer was/is designed whith recrewing and vet abilities but you should be (and I guess you are) intelligent enough to know that relic won´t help you as much as you desire so there has to be a plan B, or not?
Changing the original and unique concept by splitting it from from original CoH and remove two factions now couldn´t be the right way because this is what makes EF so interesting and awesome and would be a radical step back.

-

So please do not feel pissed off and do not take everything too serious. I take my hat off to the EF team but I still think that you should find other ways to remove the problems you´re facing now.
Same goes for critics - remember that your mod is still for free and that all of you spend their free time on it just to amuse the CoH community and just for that you should and could be proud on you.

[Zerstörer]

We're trying to fix what's broken based on the majority feedback, to make the mod more successful and MOST importantly more fun for alot more people.

Hanging our head down and accepting defeat isn't what we do, especially when we CAN fix the issues.
Ignoring the feedback and keeping down the road which has proven usuccessful would be idiotic of us.
The fact remains some people aren't bothered by the fact that the faction is indeed broken. Don't much care about balance either(cause balance is bad when a faction is broken) because the gaming experience for them is still fun.
Some people on the other hand would prefer the factions to work perfectly even if that means the limitation of not being able to have all 6 in the  same match at the same time. For them a better balance game with complete features increases the experience ten fold.
And that is what the poll is about.
Responding to the majority feedback can never be a mistake!

Fixing the root cause of the problems isn't causing more problems. Its making the job alot easier when it comes to fixing what problems are left.

Do you play 1v1 games online? Do you play vs humans with and against EF? Is there any reason why despite enjoing it so much you've never felt the need to post a replay to show a really awesome game you enjoyed that much? How often do you play online? Do you play competitive vanila COH online at all and what's your rank?
Backround helps us alot to see where you're coming from with regards to your opinions about not fixing things, so I'd be quite interested to know

[Westoffensive]

We're trying to fix what's broken based on the majority feedback, to make the mod more successful and MOST importantly more fun for alot more people.

Your plans doesn´t fix the problems - they redesign the mod because you have to split EF from CoH.

Responding to the majority feedback can never be a mistake!

You are absolutely right so take a look at the poll - over 20% are with me and they think that your plans would be a bad idea.

Do you play 1v1 games online? Do you play vs humans with and against EF? Is there any reason why despite enjoing it so much you've never felt the need to post a replay to show a really awesome game you enjoyed that much? How often do you play online?

You compare apples and oranges like you did in my balance thread or do you want to adjust this mod for me?
If you had read my few statements in this forum with care you should have understand that I do not play your mod any longer due to massive balance problems. I do not exclude that this is just my personal incompetence but this makes your mod quite honestly unenjoyable for me.

Do you play competitive vanila COH online at all and what's your rank?

Is this about EF or vanilla CoH?

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You guys have to do what to do. If you think that removing existing factions is the best way - so what? I really do not care a fig about it.

Some personal words to you Zerstörer:

Starting a kind of personal war in an official forum puts you in a very precarious position.
Constructive criticism - do you remember? 

[Zerstörer]

Debating opinions is not a personal war. Its plain conversation. I've not 'attacked you' in any manner nor have I been impolite, So, please either respond to what is asked or don't, but don't make random accusations about being picked on etc you're not gaining any points. If you don't want to answer what I asked that's fine, I'm not going to go any further with this.

The fact that you don't play the mod as you've stated(and yes I remember your previous statements) tells me quite a bit about where you're coming from when stating your opinion about the future of this mod. Its taken into consideration, thanks for your time.

The poll is nowhere near done as yet as its only been 2 days really with only 83 people voting. I would hope for near 200 votes so we'll leave it on for 7-10 days or so.

[GodlikeDennis]

The mod's not dead.... just in a coma.

@ Westoffensive - What ridiculous statements. Stop the self-righteous attitude of "don't make excuses/life is like that/philosophy" and believing you know the politics of the dev team. The fault quite clearly lies with the ex-lead, as demonstrated by the dramatic improvements to the mod since he left and the team has obviously been working hard to improve this mod constantly. Also, telling a dev team to be more like relic in their updates could possibly be the worst advice I've ever seen or heard.

Ah, a new post since I've began writing this...
"You are absolutely right so take a look at the poll - over 20% are with me and they think that your plans would be a bad idea."
A clear omission that the vast majority favour some sort of change. Your entire post also happens to dance away from answering the question of what your rank is.

"Starting a kind of personal war in an official forum puts you in a very precarious position.
Constructive criticism - do you remember?"
A condescending statement coming from someone who has much to criticise and nothing to suggest.

You should keep the attitude out of your posts.

Anyway, I agree that removing the OF factions entirely is a terrible move in that it can only detract from the total value of the mod. I think that if anything isn't done over at Relic (extremely likely), the best course of action would be to design the factions around not having heavy weapons and being able to salvage them in some way.

I voted for keeping the factions but adding retreat and vet functionality. Retreat and Vet are fundamental concepts of CoH, even the Brits have them. Much of the CoH gameplay comes from the preservation of your units and while conscripts may be expendable, I hardly think the command squad is so I would like to keep the conscripts as no-retreat while adding it to the rest of the army. I don't really know how to add vet to the Soviets in a unique way but I do like the idea of bought/earnt combination vet for the Ostheer.

[BurroDiablo]

... our Lead Developer ...

...  our old Lead Developer ...

Yeah, this easy.
-
(sarcasm on)
Sorry folks but this isn´t the fault of the team because our old Lead Developer was a blockhead and we couldn´t argue at him that there are still too many open issues left.
(sarcasm off)
-
You cannot imagine how often I have heard such excuses in real life. It is absolutely unnecessary to know anything about your team to understand that you are facing problems which might be caused by your old lead developer.

These 'problems' would have been thrashed out rationally had we been able to discuss problems openly like we can now, I expressed balance concerns many times before the release, many people did, but these concerns were ignored and the mod was released. We all saw how well that went. You can't crash a Boat and blame it on the passengers.

Why don´t you concentrate on the amazing work you´ve already done and find a way out of this mess instead of making (imo) another mistake? If you will change the non existing vet system and recrewing function to the soviets all the claims about balance and all the early problems you dealt with until now will start over again. The soviets are fine working as they are.

This is why I said your thoughts are moving in the wrong direction

What do you think we're doing? Balance may be hard but its not some gigantic unachievable task, especially when you have decent balancers (which we do now), of course, there will always be people complaining about balance, there's nothing we can do about that, the best we can hope for is pleasing the majority, and if the majority doesn't include you, that's not our problem. The way I see it, there is always room for improvement, if that means tearing down old walls and building news ones, so be it! If the fucking house collapses in the process, you can't say we didn't try.