Ostheer Air superiority = Stronger Luftwaffe presence

[Sovereign]

The Soviet war effort in the first phase of the Eastern front war was severely hampered by a shortage of modern aircraft. The Soviet fighter force was equipped with large numbers of obsolete aircraft, such as the I-15 biplane and the I-16. In 1941, the MiG-3, LaGG-3 and Yak-1 were just starting to roll off the production lines, but were far inferior in all-round performance to the Messerschmitt Bf 109 or later, the Fw 190, when it entered operations in September 1941. Few aircraft had radios and those that were available were unencrypted and did not work reliably. The poor performance of VVS (Voenno-Vozdushnye Sily, Soviet Air Force) during the Winter War with Finland had increased the Luftwaffe's confidence that the Soviets could be mastered. The standard of flight training had been accelerated in preparation for a German attack that was expected to come in 1942 or later. But Soviet pilot training was extremely poor. Order No 0362 of the People's Commissar of Defense, dated 22 December 1940, ordered flight training to be accelerated and shortened. Incredibly, while the Soviets had 201 MiG-3s and 37 MiG-1s combat ready on 22 June 1941, only four pilots had been trained to handle these machines.

As quoted from wiki you can see that they need to have a firm representation for the Ostheer as they were a strong element to Barbarossa.

[Paciat]

Why are you talking about 1941-1942?
Not all russian pilotes died in 1941!
There where some (a lot) veterans of the spanish civil war and Finnish winter war. (it was a winter so the airforce performence was poor but many pilotes gained experience there) Even few (12) french pilotes were fighting using Soviet planes.

The Kursk battle (1943) is where the soviets started to gain real air superiority (but they were shooting down german many transport planes in the late stages of Stalingrad battle too) so in 1944 all eastern skies were Soviet.

[Sommergewitter]

In 1944 where this game is playing, the Russian air superiority was sometimes 40:1.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Well; the EF Mod doesnt played just around 1944 
In theory the red army represent some typical war symbols of the red army during the hole war ( from 1941 till 1945 ).

So in my opinion the symbolic value is important
and the Luftwaffe is a symbol so why not think
about representing this arm of the german Wehrmacht?

And the Luftwaffe flew till the end of the war against the red army. Russians planes ( number is not important ) cant be everywhere and so german Luftwaffe helped the groundforces when it was possible.

[Venoxxis]

So in my opinion the symbolic value is important
and the Luftwaffe is a symbol so why not think
about representing this arm of the german Wehrmacht?

This is soo true. It would be just hard to have a luftwaffe Doctrine which differs from the PE lufwaffe support doctrine.

Thats the problem after all.. any suggestions for units or usefull unique air attacks or air support which fits into the Ostheer? would be interesting..

A integration in form of a bulding is another unique suggestion by the way..

[neosdark]

Well Venoxxis, in my first concept i had a very interesting Luftawaffe function. Certain units of mine such as the Jaeger and Artillerie-Panzerbeobachtungswagen III upgrade for the Panzer 3 could deploy flares to call different abilities from the Lufftwaffe (depending on the Doctrine.)

If i remeber correctly the Stalingrad Front let call in Supply-Drops of fuel, munis, and heal one unit (cause the wounded soldiers were being taken home and all),

the Moscow Front let you call in  2 squads of Fallschirmjaeger of the Luftlande-Sturm-Regiment 1 in a large Glider,

and the Leningrad Front let you call in a Squad of Fw 190 to shot down any enemy Planes and Strafe Infantry Squads (not destroy tanks). [/b]

Perhaps its possible do allow something similar to this with the Lufftwaffe. It doesn't have to be this exactly but something of the variety. Anyway i hope to finally get some commentary cause i can't ever seem to get it.

[wordsmith]

Ostheer could have some abilities of "Luftwaffe" kind but not whole doctrine, it would be too much. After all CoH is ground war strategy not air.

Some Ju87 would be nice - as bomb strike or 37mm AT strike of "G" version. Also some siren wail (more suppress) could be cool as it certainly would represent the first years of blitzkrieg.

Gliders has British, and air supply US. Paratroopers, or "Fallschirms" should not be included IMO. It is unique ability of US and Luftwaffe on eastern front doesn't used mass airborne assaults.

[neosdark]

Ok, Wordsmith, you do know that Air Supply was happening in the Kettle during the Stalingrad Campaign. They should at least get that.

About gliders- Everyone used gliders. Just cause one group has them doesn't mean that others can't have it. And i never said the Ost glider would act like a Brit Glider. It just brings them in. End of story. Its not a base or anything.

And the Falls........ they are Luftwaffe Infantry, im sure that this particular group served in the East. As a matter of fact they were very important in many Attacks on Soviet strongholds and cities.

Here's another thing, if the only thing that we got from Luftwaffe was birds in the sky that wouldn't really be CoH. I mean i'm all for having planes flying everywhere (being an "Axis and Allies" player for many years), but you have to think about the game itself. We can't exactly control the planes.

If we make 1 ability involve planes (strafing infantry would be pretty good to suppress the Soviet Hordes) then yeah but the others have to go along and use something else. So Wordsmith you have any ideas to fill the other two. Oh and i like that Siren Wailing ability it sounds pretty cool. I forgot what it was called, something of Jericho.

[Saavedra]

Neosdark, the Air Supply operation in the Stalingrad Kessel was pretty much useless, maybe even being the deciding factor that doomed the VIth Army.

Jericho´s Siren? A reference to the fall of Jericho, I suppose.



I would suggest, for starters, an anti-air measure like fighters shooting down enemy bombers like the IL-2 or the P-47. Also, the Siren Wail... what I would do about that is make it suppress enemy infantry within its radius immediately (red state, not yellow) and drop two bombs the equivalent fo two mortar rounds. This ability would not be about destroying the enemy as much as slowing it down in an emergency.

[neosdark]

I know that the supply was useless. But it exsisted. It wasn't doom for the army. It was already doomed. I just wanted to see if anyone can think of something useful we can drop them.

As for the Jericho thing i wouldn't have the slightest idea of who that is but thanks for the name.

Now on to the real fun. If we have an interceptor only Luft ability then we have 1 out of 3 chance that you can acttually use it against the Allied armies. But thats not the main problem. If these guys are the only ones with an interception ability thats the end for half of  the Airborne and Commando trees right there. Its just not too fair. With one ability you have just disabled an entire two armies doctrine and strategies.

Just as a note the Sturmovik and P51 Mustang aren't bombers. They are Ground Attack Aircraft there is a large difference.

[Saavedra]

I know that the supply was useless. But it exsisted. It wasn't doom for the army. It was already doomed.

The VI Army was ordered to hold its position because Goering assured Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply the whole Army with all the supplies it needed.

(Despite a heroic effort, the amount of supplies the VI Army received fell laughably short of the projected figures, nevermind the ACTUALLY NEEDED figures.)

As for the Jericho thing i wouldn't have the slightest idea of who that is but thanks for the name.

Jericho was the name of a heavily fortified city in the Old Testament of the Bible. The Israelites brought it down by blaring at it with trumpets simultaneously on a given day. Because of the JU-87´s destructive power and its distinctive siren, it received the same nickname.

Now on to the real fun. If we have an interceptor only Luft ability then we have 1 out of 3 chance that you can acttually use it against the Allied armies. But thats not the main problem. If these guys are the only ones with an interception ability thats the end for half of  the Airborne and Commando trees right there. Its just not too fair. With one ability you have just disabled an entire two armies doctrine and strategies.

Then don´t make it instantaneous. Make it so the fighters go after the bombers and try to kill them.

Just as a note the Sturmovik and P51 Mustang aren't bombers. They are Ground Attack Aircraft there is a large difference.

I didn´t, and don´t, really care about how we use the term bomber in this context. Eastern Front is not a mod for a flight simulator, it makes little difference what terms you use regarding aircraft nomenclature.

(And the P51 isn´t even a Ground Attack Aircraft. At best, it is a fighter-bomber.)

(And I´m not even sure that plane is a P51 to start with, I think it is a P47.)

[neosdark]

The VI Army was ordered to hold its position because Goering assured Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply the whole Army with all the supplies it needed.

(Despite a heroic effort, the amount of supplies the VI Army received fell laughably short of the projected figures, nevermind the ACTUALLY NEEDED figures.)

Ok ,but it was still doomed, not the point of the topic so lets get of it.

Jericho was the name of a heavily fortified city in the Old Testament of the Bible. The Israelites brought it down by blaring at it with trumpets simultaneously on a given day. Because of the JU-87´s destructive power and its distinctive siren, it received the same nickname.

Ok cool. See this is what happens when you are the son of Soviet Jews. We don't actually care enough about the heritage to read the book as a religious thing. Most of us at least.

Then don´t make it instantaneous. Make it so the fighters go after the bombers and try to kill them.

Huh, i don't get what you mean. . Are you saying that you want the planes to just fly around the map and when a plane or glider comes it will try to shoot it down? In that case you will need to have a fuel penalty for as long as they are up there in the air. But that doesn't solve the problem of it practicly shattering the Doctrines. Any sane player will have a few AA guns or tanks on the ground thus you will be having an attack from ground and an Interceptor behind them. No one can dodge both my friend.

[Saavedra]

The VI Army was ordered to hold its position because Goering assured Hitler the Luftwaffe could supply the whole Army with all the supplies it needed.

(Despite a heroic effort, the amount of supplies the VI Army received fell laughably short of the projected figures, nevermind the ACTUALLY NEEDED figures.)

Ok ,but it was still doomed, not the point of the topic so lets get of it.

Actually, if I remember correctly from Antony Beevor´s "Stalingrad", they still had a chance to execute a breakout maneuver. It would have required pulling out the tanks from the city fighting, but it might have worked better than freezing to death.

Then don´t make it instantaneous. Make it so the fighters go after the bombers and try to kill them.

Huh, i don't get what you mean. . Are you saying that you want the planes to just fly around the map and when a plane or glider comes it will try to shoot it down? In that case you will need to have a fuel penalty for as long as they are up there in the air.

No reason for that. When you are attacked by airplanes, they show up on the map. Activate the ability and fighters appear to shoot them down. That´s it.

But that doesn't solve the problem of it practicly shattering the Doctrines. Any sane player will have a few AA guns or tanks on the ground thus you will be having an attack from ground and an Interceptor behind them. No one can dodge both my friend.

You are assuming the best case scenario, which is that people make balanced armies. This seems to not always be the case, with people relying on spam to win. Airborne, for example, can rely on Airborne spam and strafes/bombings. Airborne don´t need AA guns because the one air attack Axis players have, the Henschel, does not kill infantry. With Luftwaffe fighters, you could at least rob the Airborne player of his air attacks.

Also, Commando Gliders give you nowhere near enough time to shoot them down. Your best bet relies on AT weaponry near the landing zone.

An anti-aircraft ability is nowhere near as game-breaking as you think.

[vietlord]

the blitzkrieg meant ju-87 + panzer ...

ju-87 = stunt and mortar hits (or torpedoes maybe) or a center bomb like the little-kamikaze wherm thing

[Akalonor]

What if Ostheer Luftwaffe doctrine had a plain  Bombing run, not the run like the US , but a "Carpet" bombing of a large area, you may say OP but if you consider the cost, and the FF posibilities, it may work.