Unit - Reward suggestions thread:

[cephalos]

I hardly think so. KT and Jagdpanther are unique and very badass, and I totally understand why - they have little weak points and are very tough. Soviets are about "quality of quantity", so they shouldn't get only-one-call-in units. ISU-152 is slow, rotates slow, shoots once for ages and is pretty expensive. And it can be beat by single 50mm Puma. Try this trick with T-60 and KT. Good luck

The phenomen of Soviet tanks lays in way they were constructed. Better armoured and armed with bigger gun IS-2/3 was 20-30 tonnes lighter than Tiger II. This is damn miracle of soviet engieneering.

[Ghost]

[...]The phenomen of Soviet tanks lays in way they were constructed. Better armoured and armed with bigger gun IS-2/3 was 20-30 tonnes lighter than Tiger II. This is damn miracle of soviet engieneering.

Tiger II had better armor and gun (more penetration and accuracy) than the IS-2 and a far bigger rate of fire. the IS-3 had similar armor protection and fire power (while 20t lighter).

[RedGuard]

[...]The phenomen of Soviet tanks lays in way they were constructed. Better armoured and armed with bigger gun IS-2/3 was 20-30 tonnes lighter than Tiger II. This is damn miracle of soviet engieneering.

Tiger II had better armor and gun (more penetration and accuracy) than the IS-2 and a far bigger rate of fire. the IS-3 had similar armor protection and fire power (while 20t lighter).

yeah the king tiger has the advantage over range no doubt about it.

king tigers armor was roughly the same as IS-2. is2 had slightly better rear armor and king tiger had slightly better frontal armor. and by slightly i mean less half an inches difference.

however the IS-3 outclasses king tiger by a good amount. it was better armored, probably the best protected late war era tank to hit the field. and you cant argue with a 130mm gun and dont forget IS-3 was a speed demon compared to IS-2

[Ghost]

king tigers armor was roughly the same as IS-2. is2 had slightly better rear armor and king tiger had slightly better frontal armor. and by slightly i mean less half an inches difference.

-Tiger II had 30mm more frontal armor, 20mm more rear amor, 85mm more turret frontal armor
-IS-2 had 10mm more side armor and ~8mm more turret side armor

and you cant argue with a 130mm gun and dont forget IS-3 was a speed demon compared to IS-2

1. it was a 122mm gun (122 mm D-25T Tank Gun) and not a 130mm gun. it seems to be the same gun like that in the IS-2 which means same performance and firing speed (3-4 shots/min while tiger II's 88mm had ~10 shots/min)
2. just because it's bigger doesn't mean it's better (e.g. tiger I's 88mm gun was about as good as panthers 75mm high velocity gun)
-88mm gun (tiger II): 207-274mm at 500m, 159-184mm at 2000m
-122mm gun (IS-2): 155mm at 500m, 125mm at 2000m
3. speed: Tiger II 15-20km/h cross country and 38-41km/h on road, IS-3 19km/h cross country and 40 km/h on road, IS-2 19 km/h cross country and 37 km/h on road -> all about the same speed

[RedGuard]

yeah sorry didnt mean 130mm that wass the IS-7

Not so sure on your armor values for IS-2, but We will leave it at that for arguments sake.

IS-3 armor slope was more dramatic, it was a complete re design and was revolutionary actually and paved the way for tanks like t-54/55, t-64, T-72. and the alloys used were more modernized, not to mention the huge drop off in german metal quality as war progressed. so it was alot better protected than the tiger II. its Target profile was drastically lower/smaller than the lumbering tiger II by a lot
This tank was specifically built to counter the german 88, and its 122mm main gun was also designed to penetrate the king tiger

 the most important statistic is number built


3,854 IS-2's
2,311 IS-3's <--- interesting this almost merits it being reward alone
250 IS-4's <--- One time call-in like king tiger?

492 Tiger II's 

[Ghost]

i couldn't find any data about is-3 armor so i can't say how good it was . in all sources i found is-3 had the same 122mm gun as the is-2 which was inferior to the 88mm gun so the tiger II had an advantage as it could knock out the IS from bigger range.
but you are right, let's end this discussion

about the numbers built: only ~350 IS-3 were built until the end of the war with intact russian industry...and is-4 came even later.

and the status of reward/regular/one-time call-in is not only dependent on how many were built but also a matter of balance. in vcoh we have regular units like ostwind (43 built) or bergetiger (3-8) which were rare and a more common tiger (1350) has a limit of 1 (just like the pershing with 8-20 vehicles)...only because of balance.

[RedGuard]

i couldn't find any data about is-3 armor so i can't say how good it was . in all sources i found is-3 had the same 122mm gun as the is-2 which was inferior to the 88mm gun so the tiger II had an advantage as it could knock out the IS from bigger range.
but you are right, let's end this discussion

about the numbers built: only ~350 IS-3 were built until the end of the war with intact russian industry...and is-4 came even later.

and the status of reward/regular/one-time call-in is not only dependent on how many were built but also a matter of balance. in vcoh we have regular units like ostwind or bergetiger which were rare and a more common tiger has a limit of 1...only because of balance.

IS-3 armor was of similiar thickness to IS-2 it was just re designed and of better quality. it was developed in 1943 and rolled off the line in 1944. less than a year later than the Tiger II. It did see combat

IS-4 was made a full year after the IS-3 and probably did not see combat in germany, but in china it did. they took Berlin ahead of schedule and said send it the other way

Yes, I'm aware of the sense of balance the game wouldnt be any good without it

good debate comrade

[Ghost]

about the is-3: most people agree that it was not used in europe but 1 platoon was used in china (i guess you mixed that up with the is-4 which was build in 1948).

i leave it for others to decide if the is-3 could be used in EF or not. historically it shouldn't but you can argue to keep up relic's sense of history and use it as a one-time call-in (which the danger of some crazy people calling for a Maus )

[RedGuard]

Do you support the IS-3, ghost? or the maus for that matter?

[tpcoughlin]

Do you support the IS-3, ghost? or the maus for that matter?

I do not support the mouse. was a prototype that was developed on the orders of Hitler and against the advice of Guderian. It should never, never, never be used in EF'

The ISU 3 was not produced in quantity, (compare with  1000 T34's per month), during the war, but would be a useful
addition to EF for play balance. IE If some  model screws up the game The ISU3 could be added to the game, as a patch to fix this.

IMHO the ISU3 is much prettier than the ISU2.

(Tovarich it is 12 noon as I write this, lunch time. Get back to me on PM)

i couldn't find any data about is-3 armor so i can't say how good it was . in all sources i found is-3 had the same 122mm gun as the is-2 which was inferior to the 88mm gun so the tiger II had an advantage as it could knock out the IS from bigger range.
but you are right, let's end this discussion

about the numbers built: only ~350 IS-3 were built until the end of the war with intact russian industry...and is-4 came even later.

and the status of reward/regular/one-time call-in is not only dependent on how many were built but also a matter of balance. in vcoh we have regular units like ostwind (43 built) or bergetiger (3-8) which were rare and a more common tiger (1350) has a limit of 1 (just like the pershing with 8-20 vehicles)...only because of balance.

The Germans sold the machinery used to build:  Heavy IE thick, curvilinear armor, That is so characteristic of the ISU2 IsU3 designs; to Russia when they were still allied with the Soviets. They didn't think they would ever need such heavy armor. Boy were they wrong! The BergeTiger is a special case in CoH. It was not used for its historical authenticity  but to fill a role IE all other factions have a bunker. In EF the SovBunker is the outpost. In OF\PE The BergeTiger is a fancy rolling MG bunker, with a vehicle recovery option. Beware the BTiger_ it is subject to the White Tank Bug.

[Blackbishop]

"No matter how many rocks you throw to the water or how much time you try to step on your own shadow, the water will stay, just like the shadow."

Maus is a No-No. You shouldn't put the IS-3 in the same bag than the Maus.

[Desert_Fox]

From Wikipedia:


The first group of pre-JS-3 left the factory in mid-May 1945. These cars did not participate then
any action in the European theater of war, the Germans despite claiming to have destroyed many
during the Battle of Berlin. At least one regiment of JS-3 was sent to the Far East, but it is unknown whether
have ever been involved in actions against the Japanese army. On September 7, 1945 52 floats participated
the victory parade in Berlin, caused a sensation in Western observers. The first series of tanks,
complete with every feature of design, were produced in 1946. In the same year, two wagons were
also sent to Poland for evaluation purposes. In 1950, a wagon was sent to Czechoslovakia. China
received several wagons, only after the Korean War. The only direct use of the T
by the Red Army was in 1956 in Budapest
In the late 50s the Egyptian army received the first three JS-3, although the majority were
acquired between 1962 and 1967. The Israeli army captured some of JS-3 in the Six-Day War (1967) and
in the Yom Kippur War (1973) and re-equip them with the T-54 engine.


IS-3 was most a "Cold War Tank", and I don't think it can be placed in EF.

[Zerstörer]

From Wikipedia:


The first group of pre-JS-3 left the factory in mid-May 1945. These cars did not participate then
any action in the European theater of war, the Germans despite claiming to have destroyed many
during the Battle of Berlin. At least one regiment of JS-3 was sent to the Far East, but it is unknown whether
have ever been involved in actions against the Japanese army. On September 7, 1945 52 floats participated
the victory parade in Berlin, caused a sensation in Western observers. The first series of tanks,
complete with every feature of design, were produced in 1946. In the same year, two wagons were
also sent to Poland for evaluation purposes. In 1950, a wagon was sent to Czechoslovakia. China
received several wagons, only after the Korean War. The only direct use of the T
by the Red Army was in 1956 in Budapest
In the late 50s the Egyptian army received the first three JS-3, although the majority were
acquired between 1962 and 1967. The Israeli army captured some of JS-3 in the Six-Day War (1967) and
in the Yom Kippur War (1973) and re-equip them with the T-54 engine.


IS-3 was most a "Cold War Tank", and I don't think it can be placed in EF.

Wikipedia is not really the most accurate source when it comes to very specialized subjects. Soviet war records(what has been released anyways) are a very 'grey area'.
Eg. T44 was only thought to have made it to prototype stage up until a couple of decades ago, only to find out that there had been almost 1000 produced before the war ended(1000 tanks built and not used??).

The units where re-equipped with T34s before going into action in Berlin. Considering T44 units were stationed in Berlin during the cold war as top secret weapon and no westerner ever saw them, it'd be a safe bet to say the units were re-equipped to fight in Berlin with T34s so as to avoid any chance of the western allies seeing them. Its also a reasonable assumption that these units saw action before reaching Berlin. A test unit with 3 T44s 'is now known' to have been deployed.
Now, also given that an army would never miss the opportunity to use a new weapon in war conditions, I find it neigh unbelievable that the soviets didn't use both these tanks in the last few months and made sure no records of their actions fell to allied intel.
A collapsed retreating german army would hardly try and obtain details of any new allied/soviet weapon encountered so any eyewitness claims would more than likely be discounted as mistaken sights.

keep in mind that in certain german accounts it is mentioned that they faced up-armoured T34 assault leaders which they misnamed T43s . This account is in one of Steven Zalonga's books who is considered as authority on the field. What are the chances of these and other similar instances actually involving T44s?
You just never know really...same goes with the IS3s

Regardless, as an eye candy and cool factor, I'd say that if we ever got hold of an animated IS3, we'd put it in EF 
But nothing crazy/experimental would make it in.

[TheVolskinator]

The KT (if properly commanded/crewd) would almost assuredly beat the IS3 toe-to-toe. Although rare, many of the last remaining elite tank units were given glorious amounts of APCR Panzergrenate 40 ammunition. Not to mention the fact that KT crews, while fairly inexperienced with the tank they operated (as the KT served for what, 8 months?), they were seasoned veterans of tank combat--new crews would NEVER be trusted with a Tiger or panther, let alone a KT--nor the Jagdtiger/Jagdpanther; a might rarer and in the latter's case, more deadly (that speed IRL was a killer). Though if an IS3 was able to waltz up to a KT, yeah, it'd win from -900 or so meters. I'm not so keen on it, as if it replaced the IS2 it would blow, and it coultnt replace the ISU152 (it'd be blatantly OP). Atm, swapping the KV-85 for the T34/85 (or maybe the gloriously underused and under discussed SU85/SU100 (idea: the 'SU100' upgrade would just replace the SU85 with the KV-85, instead of just upgunning the SU?)

[RedGuard]

I feel like im pissin in the wind king tiger would not beat a IS-3 in a slugfest. it wouldnt! Maybe I'm just biased, yeah I think I am 

I know its hard to come to grips that the axis just might not clearly hold total armor dominance anymore if Soviets acquire IS-3 for eastern front

And I dont know how you can try to say IS-3 shouldnt be considered for a reward/call-in when americans have the m26 pershing sitting in depots across the atlantic and the IS-3 had already rolled off the assembly line
production finally began in November 1944 for the m26 pershing. Ten T26E3 tanks were produced that month. yeah ten
And total they only produced 2000 pershings by the end of the war in comparisons the soviets produced roughly 2-300 more IS-3's than americans did pershings

Thats where I draw my relation I see the IS-3 as soviet pershing. the pinnacle of their armored might. I love my ISU-152 but its just not a true slugger like the King tiger and Pershing are.