Ostheer Vehicle Poll

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

There are a few Ostheer concepts that name Panzer III as the Ostheer "MBT".  It's fast, it's cheap, and it can still stand up to Soviet tanks.  Could also be an option.

The Panzer III could stand up to a BT-7. It was effectively a light tank. The Panzer III was used to combat T-34s in the early goings because it was literally all the Germans had initially to combat the T-34, seeing as the Panzer IVs for the invasion were Ausf. F1, which were almost completely incapable of destroying enemy armour. The truth is, until the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 arrived, the majority of T-34 kills were made by anti-tank guns, particularily truck-towed 88mm AA/AT guns.

[hgghg4]

There are good concepts out there that don't use the P4 or the Panther. I will use my concept as an example (it does use the P4 but mainly as Anti Inf),

I use the P3 as the MBT through out the game, I also how ever balance it out by adding SPGs such as Marder 2 and Nashorn to tackle the heavier tanks. I do have the P4 but its only role is Anti Infantry, completely useless if they have only tanks UNLESS you pay a very expensive upgrade (125 Muni)

[Akalonor]

goliaths cost 100 mu so it isnt that expensive.

[GamblerSK]

but Goliath isn't upgrade...

[wordsmith]

The Panzer III could stand up to a BT-7. It was effectively a light tank. The Panzer III was used to combat T-34s in the early goings because it was literally all the Germans had initially to combat the T-34, seeing as the Panzer IVs for the invasion were Ausf. F1, which were almost completely incapable of destroying enemy armour. The truth is, until the Panzer IV Ausf. F2 arrived, the majority of T-34 kills were made by anti-tank guns, particularily truck-towed 88mm AA/AT guns.

This is exact true. That is why I think PzIII should be included in Ostheer. When Germany attacked Russia the majority of tanks were PzIII with some PzIV, Pz38t, Pz35t or smaller PzII. PzIII should be available in game sooner as T34, I say around 130fuel limit (T34 is now 115+70=185fuel) as I suggested in my concept of Ostheer...

PzIII was no match for T34 in terms of armor or gun even with 50mm gun version. Majority of tank kills were achieved with AT guns. Only later as PzIVF2 version and even later PzV and PzVI were able to match soviet tanks. I think this could put a good fuel race for Ostheer as PzIII will be available sooner (could be countered with soviet AT gun or AT inf) and then T34 hits the field, and Ostheer should have some appropriate AT gun available that time to counter T34 (I suggest Pak38 50mm f.e.). Then it will be even and both players will need to either press for more fuel to tech or press for combat to annihilate opponent army to gain advantage.

Later Ostheer should have some heavy tank available, IMO TigerI is the most suitable option as it was represent in wide numbers on ostfront and as many mentioned before - PzIV and Panther is available in other Axis factions. Then I would also include some heavy mobile AT gun as Elefant but only as doctrinal.

[guynumber7]

if i ever make an ostheer concept i would have the Panzer 3, which can upgrade its shorter 50mm gun to an L/60 gun (Ausf J upgrade) for more anti vehicile firepower at the cost of anti inf firepower. (also, it would gain a bit more armor and side skirts.) And once Ausf J upgrade is complete, PZ3 can use APCR rounds abilityfor 50 ammo, where it gains much better penetration for about 3-4 shots. Also, Stug III would be anti infantry role, more effective then Stug 4 versus infantry, but crap vs tanks. It could, however, fire a single HEAT round for 40 ammo, that does heavy damage to vehicles and pretty good vs tanks. However, at another tier on, Stug III's gain individual upgrade to KWK 40 L48 gun, giving slightly greater anti tank firepower then stug 4, but losing HEAT round ability, and becoming worse vs infantry then unupgraded stug3.  Jadgpanzer 4 would be late game TD, starting with Hetzer PAk 39, then being able to upgrade to KWK 42, slightly better then panthers gun.


Also, i suggest Panzer 1 as early game anti infantry. It would be doctrinal 2 point call in, and be armed with 2 bunker Mg42, with heavy supression and firepower. However, it isint the fastest light tank, and altho immune to bullets, 2 PTRD rounds or one hand grenade or one shell of any kind will instantly destroy it.

[Akalonor]

+1 for Panzer 1 Idea , brilliant 

[Paciat]

if i ever make an ostheer concept i would have the Panzer 3, which can upgrade its shorter 50mm gun to an L/60 gun (Ausf J upgrade) for more anti vehicile firepower at the cost of anti inf firepower. (also, it would gain a bit more armor and side skirts.) And once Ausf J upgrade is complete, PZ3 can use APCR rounds abilityfor 50 ammo, where it gains much better penetration for about 3-4 shots. Also, Stug III would be anti infantry role, more effective then Stug 4 versus infantry, but crap vs tanks. It could, however, fire a single HEAT round for 40 ammo, that does heavy damage to vehicles and pretty good vs tanks. However, at another tier on, Stug III's gain individual upgrade to KWK 40 L48 gun, giving slightly greater anti tank firepower then stug 4, but losing HEAT round ability, and becoming worse vs infantry then unupgraded stug3.  Jadgpanzer 4 would be late game TD, starting with Hetzer PAk 39, then being able to upgrade to KWK 42, slightly better then panthers gun.


Also, i suggest Panzer 1 as early game anti infantry. It would be doctrinal 2 point call in, and be armed with 2 bunker Mg42, with heavy supression and firepower. However, it isint the fastest light tank, and altho immune to bullets, 2 PTRD rounds or one hand grenade or one shell of any kind will instantly destroy it.

PzIII will probably have a PzIV armor but less armor. Thats why it will apear in the game as fast as Wehrmacht StugIV.
In this stage of the game every PzIII should be an upgunned L/60 gun.
Youre right that PzIII should have some abilities like the AP shells. I would give it a focused fire ability.

There can be no immune to bullets axis tank till allies can get a 57mm/stuart. Thats why all early light tanks (before puma) are a bad idea.

[Seeme]

Late in the war thry stoped makeing panzer 2s,so it become uncomman.

[Akalonor]

Assigned to security duties mostly.

[guynumber7]

paciat i know but 1 grenade will blow it up so is that fair?

maybe it could just be bullet  resistant then

[hgghg4]

If they use the P1 or P2 they would probably have the T70 or M8 armor

[Versedhorison]

There are a few Ostheer concepts that name Panzer III as the Ostheer "MBT".  It's fast, it's cheap, and it can still stand up to Soviet tanks.  Could also be an option.

I personally doubt it. Panzer III was slower, had less armour and a weak gun that couldn't penetrate the T34 in the front. a Panzer III couldn't operate as a MBT especially given the german doctrine of quality over quantity. The Ostheer MBT has got to be either Panzer IV or the Panther I just can't see the Panzer III as a MBT. If it does get into the mod It will either be an early tank or some kind of support vehichle.

Late in the war thry stoped makeing panzer 2s,so it become uncomman.

Late war the only tanks they were makig were Panzer IV's, Panthers and both Tigers.

[comrade2012]

 PANZER III   
i would definately like to see the panzer III. it would be a good light tank that you could make a lot of. i wouldnt make it any better than  the stuart. I would also make it no more than 4 or 5 pop cap, the whole point would be that you could make a lot of them.

ELEFANT
The elefant would be cool. i would make the gun equal to that of the flak 88. Its speed would be slow, about that of the tigerII or slower. its armor would have to be awsome!!!

[Jono]

I agree the Elefant and the panzer 3 is a must have in the ostheer. Maybe the panzer 3 should be upgradable to different varients to make it a specilized vechial such as
Flammpanzer with a hull mounted flame thrower
Aust L with more armor and a bigger gun
command tank (like the british one)
and i think the panzer 1 is a good idea