One Hell Of A Concept - Venoxxis' Ostheer Concept

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

- Scouts of the Easternfront 4-men.
   Basic start inf. - very fast running and very fast capping.
   But these guys are bad fighters and should be replaced by a
   Landserzug (Thanks to Rommel for this awsome idea)  as 
   fast as possible!
   They are using the trusty K98.

- Landserzug
   5 men squard. equipped with the K98.
   hey can build uplight defensive structures, like sandbags.  Also, they can
   throw granades for some ammo.

- Spion (spy of the eastern front)
   The Ostheers new answer to a one man show, they dont need another sniper,
   they got a spy which is useable in many ways.
   -> he can sabotage sector points very quikly with bombs
   -> can camouflage, walks a bit slower than, but not as slow as the snipers do.
   -> got mines.
   -> can build up camouflaged monitoring points.
   -> got the ability to throw anti building granades! -
       mg-nests are no match than, you just gotta get behind it!

- Assault team
   Basic 3-man anti tank unit. They are equipped with 1 powerfull Panzerschreck
   and 2 G43. These guys are pritty hard to kill, even if they
   are just 3 men.
   -> can be upgraded with the ability to throw "Hohlladungen"
   -> can be upgraded with 2 StG. 44, to get some anti inf. power.

- Warden of the Reich
   Powerfull infantry unit with a 4-men squard.
   They got 4 Mp40 already, to knock even the best russian infantry.
  -> 2 man of them can be upgraded with the light mg 34
  -> to get even more anti infantry power, you can add one flamethrower via upgrading.
  -> to get light anti tank support, they can shoot a Pranzerfaust - but that costs ammo.
  -> they can throw granade bundles for ammo!

- medication team/"first care" - team
   A 3-men squard with 2 K98, the 3rd guy provids first care for your troops.
   But you need to settle it down first, to heal nearby troops!
   look out for these guys, they are usefull but easy to kill!
   but remember, they can only heal!
   restocking works without a "feldlazarett" (look at the   upgrades)
   only nearly the HQ!

Totenkopf-Kampfgruppe (5 men)
Call in soldiers with no any fear.
They got StG44 right at start,
later on you can upgrade them with 2 flamethrowers.
-> they can strike fear into the heards of their enemies,
    so you can suppress one enemy squard.
-> for ammo, you can shoot the futuristic Panzerfast 100!

German Diplom Ingineur
Call in a well educated German Dipl. Ing.
This officer-like unit is bad armed, but it gives
you serveral new options, just like a british commander
gives your units leadership. He can climb in the Sd.Kfz 9's,
to gives you new building options.

Thats all your infantry; well?
So. My question or thoughts:
First u have the scouts. You wirte that they are just good for capping; nothing more...so why should i build them? Just because of capping? I think when i spend resources in training of an armed troop i dont want just such a unit for capping ( Kar98 just for the optic?? ). I will hold my resources and start with the Landsern because they can fight, cap and build basic fieldelements...so no need for "armed" cappers. That could also be done by a light vehicle!

The Landserzug is quiet okay because a Kar98 troop for long range combat.

the spy; dont love this unit because it is a freaky op unit. As soviet or allied i would get crazy when just one guy do the work of a lot of guys. He plants bombs, camouflages himself, builds a "camouflaged observerbuiling" ,plants mines against vehicles and get a special anit-building grenades...so in a short sentence: He can everything u want! Winning the game just by right using ONE unit...i dont like this ( also from historical view ).

The assault team; here i dont realy sure what u want with this unit. Is this the main-antitank-infantry or just an other "stormtroop" with G43/StG 44. The Panzerschreck is pure cosmetics to justify this squad.

The Warden of the Reich; the next "allrounder-squad"!
They can slaughter infantry with MG 34 ( weapons like the WE Panzergrenadiere; or ), they can fight down tanks with Panzerfaust and as special benefit when all this is not strong enough they can throw a "grenade bale" ( Geballte Ladung ) which is effectiv against...well...against what? The historical "grenade bale" was used against fortifications and vehicles...and they were very effective.

The medication team/"first care" - team;
Why should i build armed medics when your HQ can heal nearby infantry AND/OR your SdKfz. 10 ( why the SdKfz. 10 oO - it wasnt a combat halftrack; its main-function was the troop support and gun-movment ), so i cant see a reason to build this unit ( just the Feldlazarett - a 4th way to heal infantry!? 4 ways for ONE faction.... )

The Totenkopf-Kampfgruppe. First...u mean the division Totenkopf or the "Einsatzgruppen of the SS-Totenkopf-units"? Both are completely different...
So. Their mission is to slaughter down enemies infantry...well...i think there was a troop with the same mission at your concept; perhaps the Warden of the Reich?
So MG34 can suppress and your Totenkopf-squad can suppress. Why should i call this unit when Warden of the Reich do the same job and had anti-tank abilities?

Hope u see why i have problems with your infantry.
I cant find specialized infantry or better "implacable" 
infantry.

[guynumber7]

 

AN idea:
I posted this in another thread but no one gave me any opinions on it.
 Panzer II Ausf L "Luchs"
Light scouting tank built at panzerwarfare commando Would be fairly expensive (thinking maybe 45 fuel)

It would be a pretty fast tank, like one of the fastest tanks in the game. It would be armed with a better version of the Wehr Sdfkz 234's 20mm gun, which would be more effective aganist vehicles. (it could also have coax MG)It would have okay armor, maybe slightly worse then Stuart level, but it would have good skirmishing abilities. I cant really think of any upgrades, except maybe a flamm upgrade or longer barreled gun


other then that though i love the concept. I think the Elefant, however, should have so thick frontal armor that almost no cannons can kill it frontally i.e. only fireflies and is2 and su100 and heavy calibre guns can kill it frontally. if flanked, however, any gun could easily penetrate it. It would have HUGE front armor but eh side armor. and its gun would suck aganist infantry but be een better then a vet3 panthers gun vs tanks. Would have no MG at first and might breakdown, but once upgraedfrom fernaindand to Elefant it would break down less and have MG. (maybe 75 munis)

[Spartasman]

the tanks are kinda weak, i mean, you start out with the Panzer III, Marder II, and then after some upgrades skip right to the heavy tanks. and if you have the tiger thing, you would end up supporting a heavy tank with what is essentially a light tank. The Panzer IV was a critical part of the Ostheer, and cutting it out is just ludicrous. you would do better to put the PKW III in with the Panzer Warfare building as an early light tank to counter the t70, rather than waiting to build a light tank in a late-game building. I dont know if i like the idea of replacing the Panthers with Tigers, granted the tigers are near-undefeatable in the right hands, but replacing my only (so far) heavy tank option with a slow, expensive unit of which i may only have 2, i dont like the odds of that, regardless of how powerfull they may be. of course, adding a medium tank like the PKW IV would even that out considerably, but still, it sounds like late game my tactics would have to slow down to allow for heavy Tigers.

[Venoxxis]

Thank you for all your replays Guys.
This will make my concept a lot better now. especially thanks to lord rommel.

Just enjoyed my holidays the last weeks, but now i gave my
concept another shot!


@ spartasman
another Panzer IV is not needed for the germans.
For the reason of originality. The Jagdpanzer IV is surely enough. Also, why do you tank about weak tanks?
If you mention the Tiger later on i mean.

-> the panzer III is pritty much the same as the Panzer IV, so that "guy" is Okay


@ Guynumber7
Thanks for the great idea.
Totally forgot about that Luchs.
Added

Thanks!



@ Lord Rommel,
Yea, I kinda see my infantry problems. For the reason
of playing to much PE i came up to these StG upgrades x)

I Fixxed a lot here, for example deleting those scouts and putting the Landerserzug into the HQ. Therefore a Kübelwagen was added into the infantry commando.

Also i made every inf. unit more "specific". No allrounders any more. Great Thanks to Lord Rommel.

The Spy is my only problem now.. I really need some creative suggestions here.. o.ô


Ready to get some critism

Venoxxis!

[Raider217]

Another problem with your concept may be the construction animations for the mortar bunker and pantherturm. These can be easily substituted with simpler things such as the Elephant or an ability to construct heavy defences such as AT emplacement (Pak40) or AA emplacements.

[PSIHOPAT]

Other mods have mortar bunker and panterturn.Animation already exist.

[Venoxxis]

right, these already exist and look very well
But thanks for thinking about that

Also i think these structures bring a lot of originality in the game, its not just another 88 oder 17pdr!

[guynumber7]

Omg man if they included the Karl it would be EPIC and the greatest thing ever, blowing the crap out of people with 600mm shells from a huge fortress is just epic win.

[Venoxxis]

Omg man if they included the Karl it would be EPIC and the greatest thing ever, blowing the crap out of people with 600mm shells from a huge fortress is just epic win.

yea your kinda right.
This is a epic looking vehicle which would bring a lot of feeling into the ostheer with its "propagada-war-gun".

Just take a look at this:
Men of War - Karl Thor (Mörser Karl Gerät 040), 600mm self-propelled siege howitzer

something similiar like this would be really epic.
Its orignial, not for its sheer size. its original for being a "singulary-shooter" and a propaganda weapon of the eastern front.

Propaganda weapons bring the greatest feeling in a game like this.
Just take a look at the Tiger, the katyusha or the IS-2.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

I think the Karl Gerät is NO OPTION for CoH.
You have to consider that such a weapon is extreme
slow in movement and had an long "cooldown ( reload ).
It would be an easy target for enemy players:
after the first shoot the enemy would concentrate all his artillery weapons against this opject or he would try to start a breakthrough with some tanks. In both situations the Karl Gerät is absolute helpless because he can drive away. Until he would start to escape artillery or tanks would have destroyed such a weapon and then everyone would cry because of such an expensive, senseless weapon

When u want to think about artillery or u want to implement heavy artillery weapons u wont need such a weapon like the Karl Gerät or the 80cm railway gun "Dora".
There are enough other weapons like 21cm or 24cm howitzers and mortars They would be strong enough for CoH.

[Venoxxis]

you are totally right about what you said.
But im sure, there is a way to make it usefull and even more orignial,
just thinking about cloak abilities. Surely than, balance is another question, but everything is possible.

Also, this unit should surely be provided very well.


another thing:
I've got a question to the team,
is it possible to salvage enemy tanks?

This would bring a lot of origniality in the ostheer.
thinking about salvaged tanks with german skins o_ô

[PSIHOPAT]

I disagree.

1 - any artillery need protection and is vulnerable if is attacked by tanks or other artillery
2 - if this piece will have big health will make them hard to kill
3 - if this monster howitzer will not reveal his position in fog of war when shoot, will be almost impossible to be guessed his position
4 - this special howitzer have advantage of mobility(is low BUT can move);after shooting will move in other location until the gun is loaded and will shoot from there,and will repeat the operation

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Well...
your points are nearly right but we talk about the Karl Gerät Its was a hugh, sensible artillery gun which need a lot of work and preparation to make his job.
CoH is a game, okay, but not a absolutely scifi game
A gun like Karl would be found easy because maps had not so much positions and space for placing this gun.
Other point is when a gun like the Karl Gerät get too much health point this weapon will destroy any game balance.
Other problem of the Karl Gerät is that you can just use this weapon in a static game situation. When your frontline is in movement or isnt strong enough to stop any attack in front of your line the Karl Gerät will get hugh troubles and like i already had said when u lost this gun because of an enemies breakthrough u would cry

When u need an artillery i think you will find nice pieces under the other german guns Panzerartillerie auf Selbstfahrlafette ( Panzerartillery on self propelled guns ) like Hummel or howitzers with calibers like 21cm or 24cm like the 21-cm Mörser 18 would do the same job for a better price, better game balance or better mobility.

And my last point against the Karl Gerät:
The symbolic value. The Karl Gerät was a weapon of the eastern front but not for the hole! When u will ask a person who is interested in the 2ww about the Karl Gerät he will tell u that he know this weapon from the siege of Sewastapol...a famous battle but just one of thousand of battles of the eastern front ( and the siege of Sewastopol was one of the "ww1" battles ).

[Venoxxis]

Probably, both of you are right in some ways.

Its a question of the point of view.
Also, i didnt want a big art. unit, i wanted a orgnial one.
Seeing this unit rolling over the battlefield would be for a lot of us just epic.
And yes, also for me that counts. This vehicle is just impressive, and with some great ideas surely a well including is possible.

Howitzer with big calibers are just other howitzers, but this vehicle, is really something else.
 I need to say it again, its not about the caliber. its about the originality of this vehicle.

Every balance issues are fixable, the EF team showed that already..


But still no news about salvageable enemy tanks?

[hgghg4]

in all honesty if we put the Seige howi in then people are gonna cry because you put that behemoth in but not the Maus, Ratte or Landkruzer, please don't I finally got through their thick heads that we ain't using them