Campaign Structure

[Saavedra]

second of all i dont even though if missions with multiple outcomes is possible in CoH.

Thing is, there are no multiple outcomes. Whatever decisions you take, you will play the same missions, but with modifications that should be doable (locking out doctrine choices was done in the original game, locking out scripts like the Commissar asking for help in the second mission if you killed him in the first should also be doable, that kind of thing).

The problem with your ideas Saavedra is that they have a massive political slant.

I call bullshit on this. Both campaigns show both sides as the scumbags they were, and stripping World War 2 of the politics involved just serves to turn it into a frivolous cowboys and indians show.

I just happen to put choices on the hands of the players, and give them endings appropriate to their choices that are more realistic than "America saves the day!" or "Russians save the day!" or "There are no Nazis in 40s Germany!"



As for accusing these ideas of historical inaccuracy, I call DOUBLE-BULLSHIT on it. Antony Beevor is a reputed historian who covered both sides of the war through extensive research thanks to interviews with witnesses and archive searches. I trust that guy more than I am ever going to trust someone posting in a videogames forum on the Internet with Soviet-themed avatars and signatures.




Also, one more thing to clarify:

The Red Army WAS a bunch of savages and animals. The list of atrocities they committed as they rampaged through Prussia and Germany boggles the mind. They were hardly better than the Nazis, exceptions had in mind or not.

[hgghg4]

Relax both of you before you both get banned. I understand where you are coming from Saaverdra, but thebomb is right. Having that in the campaign would be something that the EF team wouldn't want to do if they plan on marketing this to Relic. Even though we know that both the Russians (who felt they where in the right to do what they did because of the actions taken by the SS) and the SS did massive atrocities along with some Wehrmacht (not as many as they where everyday soldiers who wanted to keep their honor) the world today is to 'soft' in that nature and doesn't want to hear about how there where concentration camps and mass wholesale slaughter of civilians. That is today's world and unfortunately we have to abide by those 'moral' rules.  I do like your idea though, it was well thought out and rather interesting and I would love to see it implemented BUT like I said the world is to 'soft' and ignorant to understand what happened back then.

[thebomb]

I call bullshit on this. Both campaigns show both sides as the scumbags they were...

We must have played different games then.

I just happen to put choices on the hands of the players, and give them endings appropriate to their choices that are more realistic than "America saves the day!" or "Russians save the day!" or "There are no Nazis in 40s Germany!"

Company of Heroes was never about realism. This is pretty obvious with the superhero Knight's Cross soldiers and the Soviet soldiers without weapons - it's all done in the interests of having a fun game at the expense of realism.

I would argue that "X faction saves the day!" is exactly what CoH is about. Throughout the German and American campaigns you feel like you are leading a badass group of soldiers that have this "Hollywood" feel to them. I just don't think the game would be any fun if your pseudo-historical/politically slanted campaigns were put in - that's all I'm saying.

As for accusing these ideas of historical inaccuracy, I call DOUBLE-BULLSHIT on it. Antony Beevor is a reputed historian who covered both sides of the war through extensive research thanks to interviews with witnesses and archive searches. I trust that guy more than I am ever going to trust someone posting in a videogames forum on the Internet with Soviet-themed avatars and signatures.

I don't recall mentioning Antony Beevor anywhere in my post...I have in fact read two of his books, one on Stalingrad the other on Berlin, and nowhere in those two does Beevor portray the Germans as helpless victims at the mercy of the "Asiatic Horde". I couldn't find sources for some of his figures but that's largely irrelevant unless one was trying to force a conclusion that the Red Army was a bunch of animals and savages which incidentally you have done. Bravo.

Also, one more thing to clarify:

The Red Army WAS a bunch of savages and animals. The list of atrocities they committed as they rampaged through Prussia and Germany boggles the mind. They were hardly better than the Nazis, exceptions had in mind or not.

That's quite the generalization you're making there. I'm not going to argue with you since we clearly have fundamental differences regarding the perception of the Red Army. In any event, arguing whether your missions were historically inaccurate wasn't the main point of my original post. I simply thought your ideas didn't fit with the general feel and mood of the game (as I've outline above).

[Saavedra]

I call bullshit on this. Both campaigns show both sides as the scumbags they were...

We must have played different games then.

I did not mean videogame campaigns.

I just don't think the game would be any fun if your pseudo-historical/politically slanted campaigns were put in - that's all I'm saying.

I don´t understand. Where is the political slant?

I couldn't find sources for some of his figures but that's largely irrelevant unless one was trying to force a conclusion that the Red Army was a bunch of animals and savages which incidentally you have done. Bravo.

Well, they WERE. It is a generalization, of course not everybody in the Red Army was happy with raping, mutilating, burning, murdering and all the other things the Red Army did as it advanced into Germany. But if I can´t call out the Red Army´s clear inhumanity because only 40% or 30% or whatever high percentage of it was composed of people with medieval mindsets given submachineguns and free reign over the German population, then why should anyone be able to say that the Nazis were bad? Should we repeal all the sentences handed out at the Nuremberg trials because hey, maybe the guys in command were not so bad, and we can´t read minds so we should let them go?

Sure, if on a personal level you prefer to judge people by their own acts, I don´t see a problem with that. But the Red Army´s behaviour as a whole in Germany was just as barbaric, if not worse, as the German Army´s in the Soviet Union.

I wonder if there is already a German "Come and See". It would be hilarious to see the shitstorm that would arise.

That's quite the generalization you're making there. I'm not going to argue with you since we clearly have fundamental differences regarding the perception of the Red Army. In any event, arguing whether your missions were historically inaccurate wasn't the main point of my original post. I simply thought your ideas didn't fit with the general feel and mood of the game (as I've outline above).

But you did say that my ideas were historically inaccurate. It is right there in your post. That´s why I bothered writing about that. If you had not written that, I would not have replied, would I?





As for the feel and mood of the game, that´s funny, vCoH is far more politically slanted than my ideas. The Americans are suffering saints, the British are pip-pip cheerio laddies, and the Germans are either silent monsters of destruction (the Tiger commander from the American campaign) or the poor but stiff defenders of a doomed regime under the command of indifferent assholes (PE campaign). The most balanced portrayal seems to be in the British campaign, mostly because they don´t bother giving the Germans any character at all.

It is all a bunch of stereotypes. I don´t see why my ideas are worse than those when, at the very worst, they are on an equal level.

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

You both raise good points, however, this is getting horribly off-topic.

[thebomb]

Saavedra, what I'm getting at is that you're trying to insert a message into your missions (regardless of its historical accuracy, let's not debate that right now) into a game that is free of such messages. Your "help the German civilians escape from the evil Red Army" is a perfect example. Does vCoH have missions where the Germans are trying to evacuate Dresden from relentless American firebombing of civilians? No. Does vCoH have missions where we see German soldiers committing war crimes? No. That's not what this game is about.

[hgghg4]

Guys Chill out and knock it off. This has gone way to far off topic. If you want to discuss this topic take it to the Historical Part of the forums.

[Ost_Front_Soldat]

Saavedra, what I'm getting at is that you're trying to insert a message into your missions (regardless of its historical accuracy, let's not debate that right now) into a game that is free of such messages. Your "help the German civilians escape from the evil Red Army" is a perfect example. Does vCoH have missions where the Germans are trying to evacuate Dresden from relentless American firebombing of civilians? No. Does vCoH have missions where we see German soldiers committing war crimes? No. That's not what this game is about.

What is your point? You are talking about vCoH, this is EF mod. It uses the CoH engine and game mechanics, graphics, etc. There is no partnership with Relic and their campaign-design team.

[thebomb]

Saavedra, what I'm getting at is that you're trying to insert a message into your missions (regardless of its historical accuracy, let's not debate that right now) into a game that is free of such messages. Your "help the German civilians escape from the evil Red Army" is a perfect example. Does vCoH have missions where the Germans are trying to evacuate Dresden from relentless American firebombing of civilians? No. Does vCoH have missions where we see German soldiers committing war crimes? No. That's not what this game is about.

What is your point? You are talking about vCoH, this is EF mod. It uses the CoH engine and game mechanics, graphics, etc. There is no partnership with Relic and their campaign-design team.

The modders have on multiple occasions stated that they would like to retain the feel of vCoH and make it as authentic to the original game as possible - as if it were an expansion made by Relic. Having that in mind I would imagine whatever campaign missions were put into the mod, they would have the same politically neutral feel of vCoH's missions. That's my point.

[Happycat]

I would have it so the player has to protect certain road junctions through which trucks full of civilians are passing. The trucks come in from the sides of the map, heading south. The Russians come in from the north.

As time goes by, Russian attacks are harder to resist, and you will eventually lose junctions. The goal would be to have a set number of civilian vehicles evacuate through your lines. The more junctions you hold, the more civilian vehicles spawn and the faster the evacuation proceeds.

Holding on to all junctions would be possible and make the evacuation proceed faster, but it would strain your resources and you might find yourself surprised by sudden, overwhelming attacks, losing more ground (and maybe even junctions) than if you chose to abandon one or two of them in favour of having a stronger defense in all the others.

If you manage to save the minimum number of requested vehicles, you get a good end. If you don´t, you get a bad end.

I more or less have ideas for how I would structure the campaigns, but without access to Antony Beevor´s books where I am living right now, I can´t explore all the possibilities.

I like the idea... except for the whole "protecting civilians" part. Yeah, it would be more historically accurate but not very CoH-like. Instead of civilians, make them wounded soldiers and damaged vehicles retreating like the last ToV Trun mission.

[Seeme]

This got boring in the middle of page two lol

[Idilyox]

Okay,these civilians are escaping,but where?I thought Berlin was surrounded.

I have got my own and inspired suggestion about Red Army campaign,but I have to go now Later...

[Saavedra]

Berlin was indeed surrounded, but some breakout attempts succeeded before the last days. Civilians also escaped from other cities. Their destination was Allied-occupied territory.

[luz777]

Personally campaign-wise I'd like to see something containing both vCoH base building type missions and a few more small scale ToV type ones aswell. Might aswell have the best of both worlds.

Also include both early war and late war scenarios, possibly through "flashback" sequences if going the whole-hog with story and characters etc.

I made a more detailed outline of this idea in an old post somewhere, but its late and I cant be bothered to dig it out.

The flashback missions would be black and white though...snazzy 

As far as the whole content debate/argument going on here, whilst it would add an "interesting" slant to a campaign, its not really in fitting with CoH.

If people want real politics and history they should get it from books and documentaries, not computer games where the main point is to kill as many little pixel men as you can.

The jarring reality of war and "OMG!!1 Did you see how many tommies my V1 just pwned1!" dont really fit together too well, in my mind atleast 

Cheers

[Seeme]

Coh dosent give up realism for fun, it turns realism INTO fun.