For the Balance team, Fix game mechanics, not units. Plz read balance team.

[maddog0002]

For balance team. Please take the time to read this, balancing this mod is not just about nerfing a bunch of units, you have to look at the layout of the army, which has quite clearly not been done.

problem 1, unlocking buildings
The mechanics of this game are horrible, you can build a barracks then tank depot that can straight away pump out some of the best tanks in the game? with no tecing in between? Every other army in the game has to tec?

Solution 1
Look at the wehrmacht, they can build two buildings to start with, then they have to tec to be able to build the next one, and so on.

Here is an idea for you, increase the cost of the Armory to 200mp and 35 fuel, make all upgrades in it cost MP and fuel instead of Muni (Muni is meant for the use of abilities, not buying them), so that the prices are like the Wehrmacht vetting prices, and change the cost of each upgrade in the Armory depending on how much they increase the effectiveness of what they are upgrading etc.

The Tank depot and WSC cannot be built until the Armory is, and the WSC now costs 200mp and 15 fuel, the IS-2 and artillery fire base cannot be built until an upgrade in the Armory is performed, a cost of around 100mp and 35 fuel. The IS-2 now costs 600mp and 120 fuel, and the artillery fire base now costs 450mp and 85 fuel to compensate. Strelky squads become unlocked after the Armory is built.

Problem 2, Doctrines and XP points
The Russian doctrines allow you to have late game units, such as the katyusha, much to early, and for not enouph XP points and for not enough POP or MP, did you also take into consideration that since Russians are constantly losing men, that they will be getting lots of XP points, meaning Russians can unlock their command trees very fast, their conscripts in mass can devastate infantry squads like that in an OP way! meaning more XP, faster.

Solution 2
re-evaluated the set up of some of the command trees, increase the XP points that are required to buy units like the katyusha or move it down a bit the doctrine ladder so it comes in much later on. Doctrine abilities like for the motherland and red tide now cost 50 munitions to use, just like for the fatherland, same goes for all other abilities like these ones.

problem 3, abilities and tecing
Free abilities? Just because Russian tecing costs are so munitions heavy does not mean you should give them free defensive artillery that can be used anywhere and be available from the first unit you build. First of all, tecing should not cost muni, it should cost fuel and MP, and abilities should cost muni, not nothing.

Solution 3
The command squads abilities cannot be used until the Armory has been built, and the arty strike now costs 125 munitions, charge and binoculars now cost 20 munitions each. Molotov's and all grenade like abilities must cost at least 20 munitions to use.

And like I said before, all the research that can be done in the armory must be changed so it costs Fuel and MP, as munitions is used for abilities, not research.


If this is implemented, then individual units won't need as much tweaking, this is the main reason why the Russians are so OP at the moment, I'm sure you aware but here is a list of every unit that is seriously OP.

OP Units

1.Mortar is not a mortar, but an extremely mobile artillery piece with no cool down that comes out after 5 mins, since its 120mm, it should do more damege than all the other mortars in the game, but right now its free 120mm arty.
2.The sniper is far too cheap, the price should be up'ed to 340mp like all other snipers.
3.Conscripts are simply to effective for their price, either Nerf their effectiveness so that 2 conscript squads can only just take out a grenadier squad (And once grens get vet, conscripts should not stand a chance). Or increase their price to 240mp, and increase their build time.
4.Conscripts capping speed must be reduced to .75
5.Igenerny capping speed should be 1.
6.Command squads and strelky squads should cap at 1
7.And gaurds should cap at 1.5
8.The t-70 and T-90 should cost 270mp and 30 fuel.
9. Russian super tanks should have a limmit of 1 at a time.
10. T34 should cost 400mp and 80 fuel.
11. The ISU needs a damege output nerf.
12. The katyusha neeeds to be a later game unit, and cost more MP.
13. Gaurds need to cost 375mp.
14. Strelky need to cost 280mp.
15. ISU, 1 time call in, 500mp.
16. Conscripts take up 5 pop cap, to prevent spamming.
17. the barracks needs to cost 200mp and 15 fuel, making it 100mp in the first place was just stupid and increases the chance for spamming of conscripts.
18. When the Russian HQ is destroyed, there is no ability to call in engins to repair it.
This is what is required for balance, not the nerfing of every unit.

Bugs
1. you can que up command squads, but only one will be finished.
2. Conscripts should show the amount of men they have left in their squad, ingerney also have this issue.
3. If Wher, PE, US or british capture a Russian weapon, then they cannot retreat.

[Voop_Bakon]

First off, the Soviets were always meant to have munition upgrades with free abilities with long cooldown, its just how they roll. I do agree though, command points need to be bumped up universally by 1 or 2.

Your points at the end, only 1, 2 and 4-7 are needed.

Finally i do agree, command squad arty needs to be reworked and teching needs to be applied to soviets somehow.

Everthing you said about abilities needing to cost anything is rubbish as that is how the soviets work period

[maddog0002]

Abilitys and field upgrades cost munitions, upgrades ordered from buildings cost MP and Fuel, its basic CoH facts.

Russains should pay for their abilitys just like every other army, other wise people wont think and use them willy nilly, knowing that it didn't cost them a sent.

Giving abilitys long recharge times wont fix the fact that they are free, because you will still have the resourses which you should have just spent on the ability. In original CoH if you use a granade and miss, thats your problem, in EF is you use a granade and miss, it cost you nothing and you still have resourses to tec with.

[Marinello]

That takes away half of the perks of being Russian, their advantage to having a mass of weak units is the fact that you can use abilities sparingly throughout without having to pay a million munitions to keep your crappy infantry alive. Increasing the doctrines a point higher universally is a good idea but remember that the exp you receive, the enemy killing it is getting more for each kill. I agree with the fact that maybe you need to a scrapyard or some generic building like the supply depot and just add the tank upgrades there as well as making the tanks a little more costly to produce.

[ThreeAngryInches]

I actually understand exactly what the OP is referring to, but we have slightly different views on how it should be taken care of.

Every faction in CoH has to spend fuel on abilities that augment their infantry and vehicles.  PE has upgrades such as group zeal, inc squad sizes,etc... Amer has BARs, Nades, etc..., Wehr has veterancy.  You get what im saying.

All that SU spends fuel on is to tech and to purchase vehicles.  Thats it.  This, along with some of the other design decisions need to be looked at.

HERES ONE OF MY PROPOSITIONS

Remove the idea that "vet is integrated" into the units already.  The armory now functions similar to Wehr vet, but is on a more individual unit basis.  I think each upgrade should be in 3 Tiers for each units, costing Muni+Fuel to purchase each tier after the first.  Heres an example.

Ingenery starts with 2 rifles and 4 men, putting them more in the role of a weak builder unit.
Tier 1 upgrade; cost X muni: Ing now has 4 rifles giving them the firepower, but not survivability of a vanila conscripts squad.
Tier 2 upgrade; cost X muni 10 fuel: Ing now has the survivability of a conscript squad and repairs faster (call it armor if you want)
Tier 3 upgrade; cost X muni 20 fuel: Adds a 5th unit with field medic training allows Ings to heal nearby squads at the cost of muni.

These are rough ideas i came up with just now on the spot.  All upgrades would be global and instant.  Unit preservation needs to be reinstated with SU instead of the "no retreat" design currently.  These along with many other ideas i have for design based on their current design would allow SU to integrate more easily into CoH.

[maddog0002]

That takes away half of the perks of being Russian, their advantage to having a mass of weak units is the fact that you can use abilities sparingly throughout without having to pay a million munitions to keep your crappy infantry alive.

Fair enouph, but mass Conscripts are not shit, infact they can quite effectivly kill PGs and volks, and even grens.

Increasing the doctrines a point higher universally is a good idea but remember that the exp you receive, the enemy killing it is getting more for each kill.

Ya I know, but Russain doctrines dont require as much XP to get good things as the enemy killing you, that was were I was comming from withthat argument.

[Oxygen]

I agree the tech system is the problem. Only 150 fuel is spent for the extra 2 buildings and you unlocked all the units. Even if all the units were balanced, it's still a bad way of teching. It's always the same buildings order and you always unlock all the units, never think what you need and what not like american and axis factions (and even brits that not always go for t3). Russians have nothing to do with their fuel so they will always end up building t1->t2->t3 unlocking all the units.

My suggestion:
Give tier upgrades for each building. When you build any building you will have access only to tier 1 units from it. upgrades from t1 to t2 and t2 to t3 of each building will cost some fuel. You will still need to have 2 buildings to upgrade a building to tier 2, and 3 buildings to upgrade a building to tier 3. This way, if you want better infantry, you'll spend some fuel on upgrading the infantry tent, or invest first in better armors. It will also prevent the current situation that when you build the tank building, you unlock the light armor together with IS-2.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Ever played the soviet?

IS-2 need EITHER mustering tent + tank depot OR WSC + Tank Depot.
Same with guards / strelky. They need WSC or tank Depot to be unlocked. The Mortar and AT Inf is available after the Mustering Tent has been built.

[Panzerjager]

As of now people are just using conscripts instead of the inf that is supposed to superceed their role: Strelky and Guards. On another not has anyone used the red banner strelky let me tell you vs inf they are on the verge of OPness and in hordes(shudder)

[thebomb]

As of now people are just using conscripts instead of the inf that is supposed to superceed their role: Strelky and Guards. On another not has anyone used the red banner strelky let me tell you vs inf they are on the verge of OPness and in hordes(shudder)

Agreed. Conscripts should be an early-maybe-mid game infantry - right now they're being used all over the place. I think fundamentally this is a problem because of the venterancy system that's in place for the Soviets. There are levels of veterancy but the units that its applied to have different roles.

[Saavedra]

I had no trouble dealing with SMG Strelkys using MP44 Pgrens. Just one squad against two Strelkys was enough.

[Panzerjager]

Intresting, also in my last post I meant to type note instead of not

[maddog0002]

Ever played the soviet?

IS-2 need EITHER mustering tent + tank depot OR WSC + Tank Depot.

You miss read, I said that once barracks and Tank depo are built that russains can pump out some of the best tanks in the game, such as the T34, and when it gets upgunned its really powerful, and very cheap.

Same with guards / strelky. They need WSC or tank Depot to be unlocked. The Mortar and AT Inf is available after the Mustering Tent has been built.

I know, but conscripts last the entire game, especily once they are upgraded with extra rifles, conscripts are ment to be dieing all the time (according to the description of the soviets on this site), and there for should be forceing you to tec to gaurds and strelky squads. Unfortuantly since conscripts are so effective theres no reason to have to tec up to better infantry, leaveing you more reasorces to get underpriced tanks.

[CommissarGears]

From your very first post it sounds like all you want is the Soviets to be turned into the same old CoH factions instead of keeping the Soviets unique in their differences.

I Disagree with most of your suggestions, but Teching buildings and altering prices of units and the XP You need to receive your special abilities may be a good idea.

Honostly though, we should stop tearing his argument into shreds until the Developers of this mod have had a chance to read it and figure out what they want to do to balance this game because ultimately its their decision, and he does have at least a few valid points.

[Soul.j]

NO developer has replyed to your thread. i wonder if your wonderful suggestions will be taken into even consideration..

or its just all about the glory of monther land super power and freak artierly, SUper powerful tanks, instant pop smoke, super engineer army with body armour. that comes way too cheap, 200 man power :S ... its like 10 times better then a pio squard..  a joke fest :p

love this mod. but loving the balance even more !