Thank you USSR (A little about history)

[spanishfly]

First - we must understand that both - Germany and the Soviet Union are both responsible for the II World War.

Why cannot we place Soviets and Nazis on the same line? What is the difference? A different way of killing people - different ideology? Does killing people with gas (and not by the shot in the back of the head like NKWD) makes Germans a worse murderers?

Should we show you the "Arbeit macht frei" in Soviet Union. Ask all the people who were in russian gulag. Ask them, what is it like to die out of hunger on Siberia and is it better than dying by gas in Auschiwtz.

Or maybe ask civilian prisoners who were tortured to death by NKWD in Wilno or Lwow - is it worse to die being tortured by the SS?

And ask polish officers, lawyers, policeman, artists - if it's better to be imprisoned by Germans, or be killed by Russians?

If it were not for Russian intervention, maybe the II WW would end in Poland. Of course polish army was much weaker in numbers of tanks and planes, but untill 17th september, polish defence was strong enough to hold Germans a lot longer.

What I am trying to say, is that USSR brought Germans to their land by themselves by helping them in 1939. And every Russian, who cannot forgive Germans for what they did in Russia, should think about what the Red Army did later in Poland, Eastern Prussia and Germany. Thousands of german and polish woman were raped, whole towns were set on fire - people were more afraid of Russians than Germans when the front was getting close to their homes.

Also Great Britain and France were partly responsible for the II WW, as they were the main powers in Europe after the I WW. Passive reaction of France and Brits after Hitler invaded Poland was the main reason why Hitler was successful.

Military tragedy of polish army in september 1939, were mainly caused by british and french decision. First they forced polish goverment to stop mobilisation of polish troops in august 1939 - because they believed that such move would piss off Hitler (lol?). Thanks to that the war started when 30-40% of polish troops were in trains heading to the  border.

Then they stated that if the polish defence will be strong enough - they will help us in 2 weeks. Well - they didn't react at all.

And after 5 years of polish tragedy on all fronts of II WW, allied didn't have enough guts to stop spreading communism to Poland. They betrayed friendly to them polish goverment in London.

In conclusion - the main reason of the II WW in Europe was brutal invasion of Germans and Soviets in Poland. Also the passive reaction of France and GB helped Hitler to gain such military power. And Soviets should be placed on the same line as Nazis - because it is not the numbers of deaths what is important, the REASON of murdering is what is really vital - and I cannot see the difference if it goes to that - I really can't.

[bastex]

First - we must understand that both - Germany and the Soviet Union are both responsible for the II World War.

there u wrong ww2 is started by the french and the brittish they putted all the costs they had from ww1 and they trew em on the krauts (poor krauts) and the brits claimed the rurh area (bigges industreal area of germany) for them selves (CORRECT ME IF IM WRONG) so the germans had no way to pay them back so the ppl where broke and lisened to ppl like hitler an beleved him thats how i got to power and that how ww2 started

[spanishfly]

I'm talking about direct reasons - not the historical ones - of course we can say, that there are a lot of factors that influenced politics in 1918 - 1939, mainly stupid, brainless mistakes in the core of the Versailles treaty after the I WW. For example status of Gdansk (Danzig) as a free city and the new borders of Germany after the II WW.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Rzeczpospolita_1939.svg

Who was such an idiot to think, that eventually Poland and Germany wo'nt have a conflict about access to the Eastern Prussia? And imagine, that this treaty was meant to keep peace after the horrible I WW.

[roxxell]

We are talking about 2 different wars. USSR won the Great Patriotic War II. Allies won the WW2.
Allies... Even Churchill says: "If German will begin to win, we will start to help USSR. If USSR will begin to win - we will help to German" We have fought two different wars
 Childrens of USA, or Uk haven't died at their homes. British haven't saw how fascist burn whole villages to the ashes. USA haven't saw how peoples just dies because there is nothing to eat. Only USSR have saw this. Only the USSR fought on their motherland. And that why they are heroes.

Stalin = Hitler. That was most powerful propaganda ever. Clear your minds from cold war information.
My grandmother have lived in USSR. And when she talks with me - she never complaint about their life. "Life in USSR was great" - she says. And my mother thinks so too. So where is the problem? My relatives and relatives of my friends have never complaint about communism.
That means, that problem in your feeling of socialism. Communism is not just killing and red flag. Think differently. 

Sorry, if I made some mistakes. I'm just learning english.
Thank you for you attention. Have a nice day.

P.S I can give you a link, but it's on russian.
http://historic.ru/books/item/f00/s00/z0000074/st032.shtml [nofollow]
There is lot of intersting things. With links on sources.

[WartyX]

roxxell, some people had a great time living in Nazi Germany. And I would like to see a source for this Churchill quote you mention.

[Artillerist]

spanishfly:

all now crying about "poor Poland" in 1939, when coward soviets "hit with knife in back", together with germans they finished already discouraged and totally retreating polish army.

But now nobody will remember, WHAT Poland did when Hitler occupied Czech in 1938 - it cut off a territory pieses like a vulture, and did 100% EQUALLY as USSR did in 1939. And Polish have no moral rights to complain.

Of course, now no one polish historyan will remember that, because history is a politic now.

[CommissarGears]

The Irony of Russians claiming US 'Propoganda' against the USSR is so thick i could smear it on toast and sell it.

[roxxell]

Poor Poland was a losers. They lose attack on Czechs. They lose diplomatic war and became a target for a German and USSR, they lose real war.
If you really think that Poland was so cute - read some WWI and WWII history books already. USSR attacks them not for fun.

[spanishfly]

Lol - when did I say that Poland did not make mistakes?

The difference is that Poles did not murdered 6 mil people while Germans and Russian did in Poland. Of course - Poland is to blame if it goes to the case of "Zaolzie", but don't compare the polish ocupation of Zaolzie and Soviet ocupation of Poland.

Roxxell - if you really think that the Soviet Union was so "cute" than I'm not even going to argue with you. You're living in the world full of M&Ms and I'm not going to drag you out of there.

"Only USSR have saw this. Only the USSR fought on their motherland. And that why they are heroes."

And Poles, Ukrainians, Bielarussians, French, Germans etc. fought where? In space? In other dimensions? I know that for some Russians the "motherland" is from Wladivostok to Berlin, but it's not true

"
But now nobody will remember, WHAT Poland did when Hitler occupied Czech in 1938 - it cut off a territory pieses like a vulture, and did 100% EQUALLY as USSR did in 1939. And Polish have no moral rights to complain."

You cannot compare this form the political point of view though. Zaolzie in the International Law was part of Poland (treaty from 1919 or 1921 i think), but it was occupied by Chech Army during the polish war with russians in 1920.

On the other hand - eastern territory of Poland (Kresy) in International Law belonged to Poland (treaty with Russia in 1921) so it makes a difference.

In International Law:

Anexion of Zaolzie was LEGAL (but wrong from the moral point of view)

Attack of Soviets in 1939 was ILLEGAL.

Easy...

"We are talking about 2 different wars. USSR won the Great Patriotic War II. Allies won the WW2."

That was the dumbest argument that I ever seen. So maybe the II World War did not ever exist? Maybe that was just few wars? Aggression of Soviet Russia in 1939 was a participation in the II WW. Agression on japan in 1945 WAS a part of the II WW.

[brsk]

Wtf is happening here? You are discussing about you ever dont understand.
Topic starter tried to say that "soviet people had the most severest situation and played one of main part in this war, but nowadays many people dont know that"
And what are you doing now? You are finding who is good and who is the most bad?
Nobody from the ex-Ussr will tell you that Stalin was good or a hero. A leader, a man of strong will, but not a hero.  The second enemy after the Nazis was the government

Even in ussr was not ever said that Stalin won the war. It is said that soviet people won Great Patriotic War.

творится какаято ересь.

[Artillerist]

Even in ussr was not ever said that Stalin won the war. It is said that soviet people won Great Patriotic War.

творится какаято ересь.

Yes directly, all veterans say - "We fought for our motherland, for our families - not for Stalin and goverment".

Точно

[roxxell]

spanishfly
I haven't told you that USSR was so cute.
Yes, Poland actions was LEGAL, and USSR actions was ILLEGAL. Very funny opinion.
 This is the real diplomacy. There is no legal or illegal. War is just another way of dipliomacy. Have you heard it?
And you are tell me that I live in the world full of M&M? ^_^

I'm don't tell you that USSR was a World Cutest Country. No, of course it's not. There are a lot of bad things have been made. But they have made a great contribution for a victory.

You are think that WWII and Great Patriotic War is the same?
In Russia we think other way. We have books about WWII. There is about USA, UK etc. And books about GPW - it's about USSR vs. German.

We can find thousands bad things about any country. But is this really needed? We just should respect their contribution to this wars. No matter how big this was.

bsk is absolutely right, though.
И не говорите. Просто некоторые вещи неприятно слышать.

[UeArtemis]

As I wrote on the forum of the Relic about Poland:

Since the rebirth of Poland after the WWI and until the WWII, Poles dreamed about the Great Poland, what would include Lithuania, Belarus and Ukraine. If in 1939 the USSR didn't unite western lands of Ukraine and Belarus with eastern lands, it still would be a part of Poland. Lands of "Eastern Poland", as it is known in the West, don't return to Poland, because it is not Polish lands.
I do not want to hear about "poor Poles".

Do the Polish–Ukrainian War (1918-1919) and the Polish–Soviet War (1919-1921) say you nothing? So called "Eastern Poland" was concurred lands of the (Western) UNR and should become a part of UkrSSR after falling of the all UNR.
Do you know have many wars was between Poles and Ruthenian nations?
The intervention in the Kiev of 1015—1019
The Battle of Zawichost (1205)
The Galicia–Volhynia Wars (1340–1392)
The Lithuanian Civil War of 1389–1392
The Lithuanian Civil War of 1432–1438
Cossack rebellions and wars of 1591—1593, 1594—1596, 1625, 1630, 1637, 1638, 1648 — 1657, 1655 — 1658, 1654 — 1667, 1666 — 1671, 1672 — 1676, 1702 — 1704, 1734, 1750, 1768, 1768;
The Polish–Ukrainian War (1918-1919) was the last. And also was many Russo-Polish Wars.

Poland grew and absorbed the neighbours: the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, lands of Ruthenian principalities. These Ruthenian lands all time rebelled and tried to be free, until they became free and founded a state what called as "the Hetmanate". Do not forget that Poland tried to capture even the Duchy of Moscow.
Ruthenians demanded autonomy in Rzeczpospolita, but did not receive it. So do not tell me now about the Commonwealth of nations. Belarusians were lucky to be part of the liberal Lithuanian autonomy in the Commonwealth and they were not harassed, but the Ukrainian lands, which became part of Poland, were Catholicized and polonized. How was created the Greek-Catholic Church? It was a compromise between the Orthodox faith and the pressure of the Catholics.
Ukraine had disappeared from the map, when the Ruthenian principalities, especially Galicia, which the Poles consider as their own, were conquered. Ukraine had disappeared from the map when Hetmanate was broken on the right-bank part and left-bank part, and then absorbed by the Empire Russia, Ukraine had disappeared from the map, when Poland invaded in our lands in the last war between our nations. And only in the USSR, Ukraine saved some sovereignty and was and still is a founder-member of the UN.

You say these lands were not conquered? Who did ask Ukrainians, when Lithuanians created an union with Poles? Why the UPA fought against the friends-Poles before WWII? If a country is big, must it forget its historical ethnic lands and give this lands to neighbours? Ukraine is big, but it has never been an empire, like Russia or Poland. And Poland still have not polish East Prussia. Empires are always breaking down and their inhabitants are always complaining that they lost "their" territories.

Since ancient times, Russia, Belarus and Ukraine already have their own "Commonwealth", as they were born from one Rus (Ruthenia).

Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was a "very" liberal country, especially in the Polish part... As a result, most of Ruthenian Orthodox nobility went to the Zaporozhian Host and became commanders of cossacks. Many hetmans were Ruthenian nobles. And there "wasn't" a sectarian strife. Yes, there was colonization/Polonization. In the end, the Poles lived in cities, while native nations lived in villages.

And so on.

P.S. After WWI on the map of the world were many new and not so new states, which have militaristic leader who dreamed about glory for his country and about the Great [write his country]: Piłsudski, Mannerheim, Mussolini, Hitler, Atatürk... and other militarists. Some of them were fanatics and had the bad end Some not. The liberation of Western Belarus and Ukraine finally killed the imperialist dreams of this country and unite the nations. Nothing to complain about it.

Let's forget about the commiphobia now.
My view is this: in 1939 was a natural rematch of the USSR and the Red Army liberated the Ruthenian lands from Polish rule. Do not forget that the OUN/UPA fought against Poland in Ukrainian lands before the war. So Poles can be regarded as occupiers in the "Eastern Poland".

I hope you can read in Russian:
11 ноября 1918 независимость Польши восстановлена в результате распада Российской и Австро-Венгерской империй.

В 1919 разгорается Советско-польская война, которая идёт с переменным успехом. В начале поляки захватывают Минск и Киев и продвигаются вглубь Украины и Белоруссии, Красная армия переходит в контрнаступление и доходит до Вислы, но ей не удается взять хорошо укреплённые Львов и Варшаву. Происходит «чудо на Висле» — Красная армия терпит поражение, множество солдат попадает в плен к полякам, где в плену намеренно уничтожается по различным оценкам до 40 тысяч красноармейцев. Война фактически проигрывается Советской Россией, и по Рижскому мирному договору 1921 года западная часть украинских и белорусских земель отходит к Польше. В октябре 1920 г. польские войска захватывают часть Литвы с городом Вильно. В 1926 в Польше установлен националистический санационный режим во главе с Юзефом Пилсудским.

4 ноября 1935 Польша и Германия подписывают Соглашение об экономическом сотрудничестве. Для подавления «диссидентов» во второй Речи Посполитой по инициативе министра внутренних дел при непосредственном консультировании немецких «специалистов» была создана сеть концлагерей. Эта сеть является примером типичного польско-нацистского сотрудничества. Один из первых таких лагерей был построен 12 июля в пяти километрах от городка Берёза-Картузская (нынешняя Брестская область ) как точная копия нацистского концлагеря Ориенбург: пять защитных рядов изгороди из колючей проволоки, широкий ров с водой, затем проволочная изгородь под высоковольтным напряжением, по углам ограды (высотой около 7 м ) сторожевые вышки с пулемётами, охраны с немецкими овчарками. Непосредственно за организацию лагеря отвечал польский воевода Костик Бернацкий.

В 1938 Польша отобрала у Чехословакии Тешинскую область.

21 марта 1939 Германия требует от Польши передать ей вольный город Данциг, вступить в Антикоминтерновский пакт и открыть для неё «польский коридор» (создан после Первой мировой войны для обеспечения выхода Польши к Балтийскому морю ). Польша отвергает все требования Германии.

So in some ways, the war formally was caused by Poland itself. In fact, of course, the war would be, even if Poland fulfilled the requirements of Germany.
But now I have focused on conquests of Poland


I think in Poland under a rule of Nazis was worse than under a rule of Socialists. Besides, Stalin died in 1953 ... Soviet regime was "softer" after that.
What would happen to Poland, if it is not "liberated" by the Red Army?

[Saavedra]

Even Churchill says: "If German will begin to win, we will start to help USSR. If USSR will begin to win - we will help to German"

Yes, I´m sure Churchill really looked forward to getting friendly with the Germans while they bombed London.


 

Childrens of USA, or Uk haven't died at their homes. British haven't saw how fascist burn whole villages to the ashes.

I wonder what country you are from to be so ignorant of the Blitz. 

[roxxell]

Even Churchill says: "If German will begin to win, we will start to help USSR. If USSR will begin to win - we will help to German"

Yes, I´m sure Churchill really looked forward to getting friendly with the Germans while they bombed London.


 

Childrens of USA, or Uk haven't died at their homes. British haven't saw how fascist burn whole villages to the ashes.

I wonder what country you are from to be so ignorant of the Blitz.

Churchill was a greatest diplomat. And he is follows his own targets - for example kill two rabbits by one shot. He was succesfull. We still suffer from this war.
 If Churchill wants to stop the war, he can just attack Germans earlier.

You call me ignorant? You really think that I don't know anything about blitzkrieg? So, it's better for you to know, that I am from Russia. And I'm know better, what was going on there. 'Cause I have information not only from books, but from facts that my grandfathers told me. Nobody knows the war better then soldiers, yeah?

UEArtemis - you're quite right. Good post.