Thank you USSR (A little about history)

[CommissarGears]

I disagree slightly with this.  While i agree that the United States was making an enormous profit selling arms to the European nations during both world wars, i was under the impression the US took an isolationist additude, meaning they would not join the war on eithor side simply because it wasnt a war that had anything to do with Americans.

Then, If i may quote wikipedia seeing as i cant word this very well without sounding mentally ill:

"In January 1917, after the Navy pressured the Kaiser, Germany resumed unrestricted submarine warfare. Britain's secret Royal Navy cryptanalytic group, Room 40, had broken the German diplomatic code. They intercepted a proposal from Berlin (the Zimmermann Telegram) to Mexico to join the war as Germany's ally against the United States, should the U.S. join. The proposal suggested that if the U.S. were to enter the war then Mexico should declare war against the United States and enlist Japan as an ally. This would prevent the United States from joining the Allies and deploying troops to Europe, and would give Germany more time for their unrestricted submarine warfare program to strangle Britain's vital war supplies. In return, the Germans would promise Mexico support in reclaiming Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona.

U.S. declaration of war on Germany
 
President Wilson before Congress, announcing the break in official relations with Germany on 3 February 1917After the British revealed the telegram to the United States, President Wilson, who had won reelection on his keeping the country out of the war, released the captured telegram as a way of building support for U.S. entry into the war. He had previously claimed neutrality, while calling for the arming of U.S. merchant ships delivering munitions to combatant Britain and quietly supporting the British blockading of German ports and mining of international waters, preventing the shipment of food from America and elsewhere to combatant Germany. After submarines sank seven U.S. merchant ships and the publication of the Zimmerman telegram, Wilson called for war on Germany, which the U.S. Congress declared on 6 April 1917"

And in WW2 we were bombed by the Japanese at Pearl Harbor (Which i can see from almost any hill near my house) which was reason enough to declare war on them, and in turn Germany declared war on the US.  While profiteering and debts 'may' have been incentive for joining the war on the side of the people they were selling the arms to, i believe there were alternative and more prominat reasons closer to home, which threatened the land that they lived for the joining of the war.

[Bigpop]

This thread is blah IMO. Just epic trash lol


England, US, Russia, Poland, France, the Dutch, etc etc all helped to topple the Axis powers.

Did Hitler need to be stopped? Absolutely no question.

Did Stalin need to be stopped? Absolutely no question.

They were both maniacs. There was a small book written by an Englishmen called "Animal Farm" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm) I suggest people read it. He was an Englishmen who supported communism and participated in the Spanish Civil War when Russia and Germany were testing out all their new toys and killing people in the '30s. Russians tried to assassinate him because even though he was a communist follower, he supported Mikhail Tukhachevsky, Stalin's arch rival. Tukhachevsky was also widely considered the best Russian military mind. Of course Stalin killed him (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tukhachevsky). Anyhow, go read the book. It says alot about Totalitarianism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarism) and shows the evil not only of the system but the actual men like Stalin who ran the government.

Stalin was a scumbag, and since I haven't seen anyone else take a hard line stance on this, I will. Stalin was (only marginally) worse than Hitler. He was evil, a nut job and a murderer, MORE so than Hitler.

People talked about the "propaganda" that the US has against Russia...are you serious? The US (as far as WWII) always kissed Russia's ass. They completely ignored the mass murders of Stalin just to get help against Hitler! We supported Stalin, worked with him, gave him money, supplies, material, information and never once said..."Hey wtf are you doing to your people?!" How is THAT propaganda against Russia?

During the invasion of '41 Russia got so desperate they strapped mines to the back of DOGS and trained them to run under German tanks and explode the tank. I mean...are you serious?!

Russians pillaged and sacked Poland and Finland raping along the way. All the while Stalin was the leader. Don't hand me this BS about he was a great man or times were hard so bad things were done. I'm pretty anti religion, but in the case of men like Stalin and Hitler I almost hope I am wrong and there really is a GOD. Because those two deserve to live an eternal life of pain for the horrors and atrocities they committed.

I salute every single soldier of WWII who made the supreme sacrifice, no matter how big or small, from every country. Not all Germans were Nazis. Not all Russians were Communists. Not all Japanese were Imperialists. But it will be a cold day in hell that I ever condone what the leaders of certain countries did and Russia is right at the heart of the terrible deeds.

I just can't believe people have the nerve to say Stalin was a great man. Also I love how someone mentioned greatest Russians ever and didn't even mention Trotsky or Vladimir Lenin!!! I mean holy cow, Lenin was the epitome of what Russians were supposed to be and now people don't even remember him? Wow....just wow.

[Der Deutsche]

Thank you USSR...
when i read this i had to stop for a while, because as a german i have to ask myself: for what?
ok they have "liberated" us from Hitler.
i write "liberated" because in eastern Germany they build up just a new totalitarian regime.
And if somebody tells me now something like "the allies wouldn´t have the war without russia " I tell him: " Look waht happened in WWI". The point is that the USA could build their ships, planes, and tanks faster than the germans could destroy them- russia just throw waves and waves against the german front till it collapsed.

And again i ask my question: for what should I thank USSR?
Shuold I say "thank you" to the russian soldiers for:

-raping 2 Million german woman and girls ( some of them were younger than 6 years)- 240.000 died after the rape
-banishing 12-14 Million Germans from their homes
-bringing german POW´s to Siberian Gulags which were mostly like the German KZ´s (just without the Gas-chambers)

These are the reasons why i´ll never say "Thank you USSR"

[Artillerist]

If you go to this page you can see statistics for casualties of WW2. As you can see only 400,000 total American and British dead where 25,000,000 total Soviet Union dead.

So yeah, not many Americans know that or give a crap. 

You dont know real things man... USSR lost >45.000.000....

2 Der Deutsche: with full respect to germnas (I have many good friends in Germany), I can say:

After all that GERMANS did on Ostfront, GERMAN NATION MUST BE ELEMINATED! Hitler and all his nation and army wanted TOTAL WAR on Ostfront? War to the last man? WAS GOING TO ELEMINATE ALL POLES, BELORUSIANS, UKRAINIANS, RUSSIANS? Okey, HE GOT IT! IN 1945 GERMANY and AUSTRIA MUST BE INFLAMED AND BURNED, MAUREDERING (WITH FULL RIGHTS FOR THIS SACRED REVENGE!!!) ALL POPULATION, INCLUDING YOUNG CHILDREN AND WOMEN AND OLDMEN!!!

BUT WHAT WAS THAT???

THAT DID NOT HAPPENED!!! "Bad SOVIETS" WERE MERCYFULL ENOUGH TO THE MOST UNHUMAN ENEMY, AND LEAVED GERMANS THEIR LIVESTO LIVE.

YES, WE, WHO LOST MORE THAT 45 MILLIONS OF POPULATION, WHOS WONDERFULL AND BEAUTIFULL MOTHERLAND WAS BURNED, RAPED AND WIPED - WE WERE MERCYFULL AND LEFT THEM THEIR LIVES!!!

AND HOW DARE YOU NOW TALKING ABOUT ...RAPING, BANISHING,BRINMGING... wHO DIDNT SAW WHAT THAT MEAN!!! ASK PEOPLE FROM BELARUS',WONDERFULL COUNTRY WITH VERY HEARTFULL AND KIND PEOPLE - ABOURT WWII TIME! BELARUS' LOST 1/3 of its population - 3.000.000, burning till last house over 9 000 Belarusian villages killing all it population, deporting some 380,000 people for slave labour, and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians more.
LAST WORD: GERMANY STARTED THAT WAR, MADE APALEPTIC DAMAGE TO HUMANITY, AND NOW SOME BUSTARDS DARE TO SAY SOME THING ABOUT "POOR GERMANS IN 1945"?

[Subutai]

Just look at what Spanishfly said. If Hitler was voted the 3rd most admired person in German history there would be outrage, especially in Russia. But Stalin, who arguable caused the deaths of more people than Hitler is seen as a Hero of some kind, and he wasn't, just a murderous tyrant. His generals won him the war, but he took the credit.

The main difference between them is that Stalin was smart and knew how to make friends. While Hitler went for the "badass massmurderer" image with skulls, death and black uniforms, Stalin was sweetmouthing about solidarity and socialism.

Both were fascists, both were killers, both were bad. But one of them realized that it ain't smart to walk around and talk about how "bad" he is and played it nice instead. That's why Stalin not only killed more people than Hitler, but also got the support from most of the world while doing it!

At the same time, I understand why the Russians admire him. If I was Russian I would place him at the top spot. He killed alot of his own people, sure, but to be honest; would the USSR have been able to stop the Nazi onslaught without a leader like him? He had that "strong fist" that was necessary to unite the Russians against this the greatest threat they had ever faced (saying alot, considering that they suffered under both the Mongols and Napoleon)... He was a necessary evil.

Onto the topic... Yes, when you start to really read about WW2 you realize pretty fast that the most important part of the war was "Hitler vs. Stalin". More people fought and died on the Eastern Front than on all other fronts combined. IIRC, the top 5 bloodiest battles in human history were all fought on the Russian front of WW2. Stalingrad, Leningrad, Kursk and Berlin are just some of the more famous battles, but there are numerous others that we barely know anything about in the west, but make the most ferocious fighting in Western Europe look like afternoon tea.

It was the culmination of a conflict that had defined post-WW1 Europe; that between fascism and communism. The nazis dubbed it a "War of Extermination" - which is a nice way of summing it up.

In the end, it meant the end of traditional European militarism.

This is, imo, a very good documentary about the war in the East; "The War of the Century"
"War of The Century": 1 of 20 [nofollow]

[Bigpop]

Just look at what Spanishfly said. If Hitler was voted the 3rd most admired person in German history there would be outrage, especially in Russia. But Stalin, who arguable caused the deaths of more people than Hitler is seen as a Hero of some kind, and he wasn't, just a murderous tyrant. His generals won him the war, but he took the credit.

The main difference between them is that Stalin was smart and knew how to make friends. While Hitler went for the "badass massmurderer" image with skulls, death and black uniforms, Stalin was sweetmouthing about solidarity and socialism.

Both were fascists, both were killers, both were bad. But one of them realized that it ain't smart to walk around and talk about how "bad" he is and played it nice instead. That's why Stalin not only killed more people than Hitler, but also got the support from most of the world while doing it!

At the same time, I understand why the Russians admire him. If I was Russian I would place him at the top spot. He killed alot of his own people, sure, but to be honest; would the USSR have been able to stop the Nazi onslaught without a leader like him? He had that "strong fist" that was necessary to unite the Russians against this the greatest threat they had ever faced (saying alot, considering that they suffered under both the Mongols and Napoleon)... He was a necessary evil.

Onto the topic... Yes, when you start to really read about WW2 you realize pretty fast that the most important part of the war was "Hitler vs. Stalin". More people fought and died on the Eastern Front than on all other fronts combined. IIRC, the top 5 bloodiest battles in human history were all fought on the Russian front of WW2. Stalingrad, Leningrad, Kursk and Berlin are just some of the more famous battles, but there are numerous others that we barely know anything about in the west, but make the most ferocious fighting in Western Europe look like afternoon tea.

It was the culmination of a conflict that had defined post-WW1 Europe; that between fascism and communism. The nazis dubbed it a "War of Extermination" - which is a nice way of summing it up.

In the end, it meant the end of traditional European militarism.

This is, imo, a very good documentary about the war in the East; "The War of the Century"
"War of The Century": 1 of 20

Looks like a great video, i'm gonna check them out. Thanks for sharing!

For the supporters of Stalin and his actions, you can try to justify what he did and how he did it all you want. You can accuses Germany of all the evils you want (and most of them, rightfully so) but you can NEVER exempt Stalin from the SAME exact evils that Hitler committed.

And as far as Russia "needing" Stalin, to lead the army, no. The man the world (and Germany) respected most and considered Russia's greatest general was Tukhachevsky. He was so feared that Germany went out of it's way to plant fake evidence about him being a spy for them, just because they KNEW Stalin was a crackhead and would instantly react by killing him. And sure enough. He did just that.

Tukhachevsky was a great military mind that was a Field Marshal by age 42! Stalin hated him because during the Russian war with Poland, Stalin directly disobeyed orders from Tukhachevsky and the Russian army was beaten up outside of Warsaw because of it.

Also another note about Stalin. For the first 2 weeks after Germany invaded. He was no where to be found. No one knew where Stalin was. Not even the top ministers could find him to see what he wanted to do about the German invasion. Ya.....he was a GREAT leader of men 

[Schuultz]

Hitler and all his nation and army wanted TOTAL WAR on Ostfront? War to the last man? WAS GOING TO ELEMINATE ALL POLES, BELORUSIANS, UKRAINIANS, RUSSIANS?

Actually, he didn't. He intended to create a de-industrialized agricultural zone all around Germany, which would supply Germany with food and the resources needed for its industry - kinda like the Soviet Union did it with the Ukrainians.
In the meantime, ethnic Germans would focus on industry, soldiering and making babies.
As crass as it might sound, he basically wanted to create a new Sparta, including eugenics and all.

He only called out "Total War" when the Wehrmacht was getting into trouble in the East, and he needed to mobilize the people. Until then, he tried to keep the war as noninvasive on German everyday life as possible.

THAT DID NOT HAPPENED!!! "Bad SOVIETS" WERE MERCYFULL ENOUGH TO THE MOST UNHUMAN ENEMY, AND LEAVED GERMANS THEIR LIVESTO LIVE.

You might want to also mention the part where Russians de-industrialized Germany and put the Germans to work in its factories and on its fields to feed the Russia, nevermind the complete expulsion of any Germans living East of the Oder/Neisse (after all ca. 30% of Germans) either into the GDR or Siberia, Kazakhstan, etc, where they would work as slaves to allow for the Soviet Economy to continue working despite Communist mismanagement.

YES, WE, WHO LOST MORE THAT 45 MILLIONS OF POPULATION, WHOS WONDERFULL AND BEAUTIFULL MOTHERLAND WAS BURNED, RAPED AND WIPED - WE WERE MERCYFULL AND LEFT THEM THEIR LIVES!!!

Not so much at your own discretion. Stalin very much wanted to go Old Testament on Germany's ass, but the Western Allies wouldn't allow it (Moral Superiority and all). And Russia was too weakened to risk a confrontation with them.

PS: Casualty estimates for the Soviet Union gravitate more around 24 Million. (Human lives make for wonderful statistics, don't they?)

AND HOW DARE YOU NOW TALKING ABOUT ...RAPING, BANISHING,BRINMGING...

Because when both sides are equally bad, neither has the right to complain about the other.

LAST WORD: GERMANY STARTED THAT WAR, MADE APALEPTIC DAMAGE TO HUMANITY, AND NOW SOME BUSTARDS DARE TO SAY SOME THING ABOUT "POOR GERMANS IN 1945"?

Look at my previous comment. He was basically arguing that, because the Soviet Union was in no way morally superior, he has no real reason to be grateful towards it as a German.
They didn't bring liberty, they didn't bring safety and they didn't bring justice.
The Eastern Germans basically jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire - nothing to be grateful about, really.

[Artillerist]

http://gplanost.x-berg.de/gplanost.html

Generalplan Ost
Rechtliche, wirtschaftliche und räumliche Grundlagen des Ostaufbaus
Vorgelegt von SS-Oberführer Professor Dr. XX, Berlin-Dahlem, 28.Mai 1942

When You talk about "Bad Stalin", "equal evil" and other crap - You must "forget" about this:


Soviet soldiers didnt made shoes from human skin. And didnt murder whole sities to the last one survivor. German "heroes" did that. German wonderfull soldiers found good way to discound ammunition - they tied two little child one to another, laughuing and calling it butter-n-broad, and shoot two little heads with one bullet. Yep, very brave and VERY HUMAN.

[Bigpop]

Zerstorerflieger your acting like a child. No one is saying that Germany didn't commit war crimes. Everyone knows that. What you and others don't seem to admit or know though is that Russians ALSO did these things.

Subutai posted a video earlier on this page about the Eastern Front and imagine this: Ukranian partisans admitted that Germans killed people by shooting them, but that Russian partisans cut off ears, noses, genitals, and mutilated the bodies of not only German soldiers but also Ukranian CIVILIANS! OMG...people who LIVED through the war seem to disagree with your sentiment that Germans were the worst offenders.

The reality is Russians were doing the same things Germans were doing, just going about it differently. Germans thought they had a sick sense of "European Honor" and simply shot people, Russians used, as quoted in the documentary "Asian tactics" of torture and mutilation. You can prance around all you want and act like a child but if you seriously think Russia had the "Morale High Ground" against Germany, then I want some of the drugs you are on because you are dead wrong.

[EasyWinHunt3r]

USA is rich thanks to european wars :/ this is indeed the reality.
But nowadys are the USA who are asking Europeans to help em angainst terrorism, but as long as we are allys we cannot ask you money for our help xD bloody yankees! And i wish Europe could make a little more efforts to help USA

[Zerstörer]

None denied the atrocities commited by the nazis(in particular the ss death squads not the WH)

However you're in denial with regards to the atrocities by Stalin's regime against millions of people even before WW2.

What the nazis did doesn't somehow 'cleanse' the crimes of Stalin's regime even against his own people (not to mention his purges of other minorities including Jews etc). And the murder of thousands of Poles?? They weren't even fighting against the soviets! You can't try to justify Stalin's crimes by simply pointing to the nazi crimes, that's not how it works.

It's a bit of a double standard to call one mass murderer a hero and the other mass murderer an evil crazy maniac don't ya think?

War is a dirty business and it was at it's worse form in the Eastern front. What you need to remember and to realize is that the regimes don't always reflect the actual majority people who where simply fighting for their life.

Accepting what Stalin was isn't throwing dirt on the memory of those russians who gave their life in defense of their country.
Denying Stalin's evil however IS throwing dirt on the millions of his dead victims
 

[luz777]

Precisely, nobodys saying the Nazis didn't commit atrocities, of course they did. But people also did on Stalins command. If Stalin was so opposed to the Nazis, what do you think the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was all about?

And as for defending oneself, I suppose that was why Poland and Finland were invaded?

Like Zerstorer said, this isn't ignoring and glossing over the immense sacrifices made by the Russian people, just accepting that what the leaders of their country was doing was wrong.

Whats so bad about that?

[Artillerist]

Denying Stalin's evil however IS throwing dirt on the millions of his dead victims

I dont deny Stalins madness. I know about REVENGE actions os soviet soldiers with germans and other axis. And I dont like Stalin personally, as more than 10 of my ansectors died from hunger in 30th...

My two grangrandfathers fought that war.
A.Konstantinov was anti-tank artillery man, fought 41-44 and MiA in Belorussia. Had 12 tanks on score, 2 Tigers include.
F.Bubnov, fought only from summer42 to oct.42, on Don encorclements, and finally in the flame of Stalingrad... Heavy shellshocked during closecombat, luckyly survived and dismissed.

They fought against nazis, and I get crazy when somebody is talking about my grandfathers, liberating my motherland from that f*cking nazis were doing bad thing!

And about cruelty of war - eaurope never suffered so much from "bad soviets" as soviets suffered from "blonde heroes"... Maguar, Croats, Yougoslavian partizans, British - all of them were extremly cruel to both soldiers and sivillians. Not only "bad soviets".
Post Merge: January 18, 2010, 02:35:45 PM

What you and others don't seem to admit or know though is that Russians ALSO did these things.

Ok, tell me please about Soviet Konzlags. I want to hear. And how many millions (not thouthands, but millions - as nazis did) people were burned alive or died because of gas camera... Telll me... Russian "Arbeit macht frei"...

Our "big brother" from the other side of planet just want to place Russia on the same level with nazis. And You now, pumpheads, are just zombied Good buy...

[Bigpop]

And about cruelty of war - eaurope never suffered so much from "bad soviets" as soviets suffered from "blonde heroes"... Maguar, Croats, Yougoslavian partizans, British - all of them were extremly cruel to both soldiers and sivillians. Not only "bad soviets".

I think everyone is saying that ALL countries had some war crimes in WWII. The US, Germany, Russia, England etc etc. Now you can certainly say some more then others but in the end, war is war and soldiers do things sometimes that they aren't proud of later.

Ok, tell me please about Soviet Konzlags. I want to hear. And how many millions (not thouthands, but millions - as nazis did) people were burned alive or died because of gas camera... Telll me... Russian "Arbeit macht frei"...

Our "big brother" from the other side of planet just want to place Russia on the same level with nazis. And You now, pumpheads, are just zombied Good buy...

I'm not being an ass here at all, but I literally don't understand anything you meant by this. I don't know what you mean about burning people alive, what a gas cameras is. I don't know what you mean by big brother placing you with Nazis and I have NO clue what  pumpheads that are zombied means.  Feel free to clarify, in a NON insulting way, if you wish.

[luz777]

Haha, "Zombied Pumphead"...I like it