Balance

[Bigpop]

I know this is probably too late and no one cares, BUT I figured I would post this, if anything for my own personal knowledge that I at least said my peace on this!

This might be a long post but I earnestly hope it is read all the way through, at least by the dev team and all that are working on this project.

First off the new shoutcast that was posted was great. Well done. Apex’s  enthusiasm was GREAT and he seemed genuinely excited!

I must confess however, I do not share the same excitement with this mod. I am, obviously, in the VAST minority. I am not flaming and do not expect to be flamed in return, but rather was hoping to toss my opinion out for the betterment of this project as the essence of it is something we have all wanted!

I have major concerns about balance issues. CoH is already currently suffering from massive imbalances, in particular with the Brits and Panzer Elite. That being said I think the Russian army is going to be vastly over powered and this shoutcast seems to prove my own points.

My first major concern is the lack of the retreat button. On the surface this, as stated previously by the team, makes the Russians more "tactical". However I feel that it takes away from the Wehrmacht tactics. The point I am trying to make with this is that, flanking an MG42 is incredibly easy with the Russians. One 8man conscript section runs in, get suppressed. Then, because (and especially early game!) because the MG42 isn't forcing the Russians off (because they can't retreat!) the MG has 1 of 2 problems. It is A). locked into position to continue suppressing/damaging the conscript squad or B) forced to fall back and give ground in the early/mid game. Once the Russians have one or two squads out, they can send one in to get suppressed and the others to flank, easily pushing off MGs in the early going, similar to the current US tactics but seemingly much more powerful because of the Russians strong late game as well.

Last I had heard, the Russian counterpart "Ostheer" will be released later, which causes so major issues with the current two armies facing off against this new giant. The biggest problem with this particular issue is that, once the Ostheer IS out, it will be vastly OPed along with the Russians, making the other 2 current Axis factions pointless.

The IS-2 seems to be a bit strong. I know it was a powerful tank, but 2 of them being able to take out a KT with relative ease (the Panzer IV came in late but still got a couple shots in and they STILL didn't kill one until after the KT was down) and the fact that a Panzer IV is obliterated by these things really kills Wehrmacht's late game. How does a Panther hold up to these? A Tiger? It seems from that replay that a KT is a terrible choice versus Russians because once they have 2 IS-2s your KT is trash. Now granted, it was poorly supported, no argument there. But if you set two up gunned shermans unmicroed against one unmicroed KT, KT wins 100 out of 100 times. Same with Cromwells, or Fireflies. As Apex said, the KT is called "KING" because it is. But as long as you produce 2 IS-2s you crush the thing. Meanwhile if your diligent you can easily decrew the packs either with Stalin's Organ Pipes, with infantry or through combined arms. And if you do happen to lose one of your IS-2s, well just make another. But if the Wehrmacht loses the KT...it can't make another. That is why it's supposed to be so powerful. You get it once and that's it.

The "slow" start for the Russians doesn't seem very slow to me. Granted, you don't have an initial unit but the production time and extra resources easily make up for this. You go from having 0 units to 3 units within 90 seconds or so and the Wehrmacht has 4 units if they are lucky. Problem is 2 of the 4 Wehrmacht units are Pioneers who are off capping elsewhere in many instances. Russians seem to speed up quite well and have NO problem in mid/late game. Wehrmacht is widely known as a faction that doesn't "start fast" like the US, for example. This contradicts the Russian's "slowness" because the Wehrmacht's strength isn't in early game, but late game. So technically, both factions start slow and get BIG later. Except Russian's late game is more powerful than Wehrmacht's. And since Wehrmacht doesn't excel at early game (it's a more campy army that holds what ground it has taken and SLOWLY advances after each winning engagement!) at what point do the Axis have the chance to win? In the case of US VS Wehrmacht, US wins by pressuring early, resource denial and aggressive play with flanks. Wehrmacht wins by preventing those flanks and vetting up with partial map control, then pushes as late game comes in. There is a synergy of the two factions. Russians don't have that synergy with Wehrmacht and certainly not with PE because PE's AT is (by any sane CoH follower) considered sub par. 

The upkeep cost also seems to not even effect the Russians. Generally, by late game a Wehrmacht player with a couple MGs, couple Grens, Pios, 1 PaK, an Owstwind and Panther for example, is getting something like 220ish man power/minute.

The US has similar issues but those can be fixed by the reliable and underused supply yard upgrades. However without those, the US has similar drains on their resources. The Russians fielded (apologies I am not familiar with all the squad names yet!)  several (5ish total I believe) infantry squads of various tiers, one Organ Pipe, and two IS-2s and STILL had 270+ Manpower income, even in late game. That is nuts. Obviously no one needs to worry about how the US scales against Russians but the example just proves the point. Russians don't seem to be capable of being drained of Man Power, which is one of the biggest early game wars between the vanilla factions.

The abilities to break suppression aren't normally HUGE issues but when the unit NEVER retreats and breaks suppression regularly it makes MG42s obsolete for Wehrmacht,  a faction that traditionally relies heavily on "combined arms" tactics to overcome their opponent. 

These are just some of the issues I see and am afraid of with the coming mod. As I previously mentioned, I most definitely want an expansion/mod like this. But I want it done right, not just hurried out (not trying to insulting the time that all of this excellent team has put in) and create further imbalances to the ever shrinking community of CoH.

Anyhow, I have a ton more I could say but as I previously said, I don't want to be taken as someone insulting the team or the effort. I love the idea and think you guys are trying to do something great. But I feel like you may be "out thinking" your selves by trying to be too original and this is what brings about imbalance issues.   

[Bigpop]

ok I HAVE to say this "THE NEXT TIME SOMEONE SAYS THIS I AM GOING TO SHOOT A PUPPY!" no but I will get kinda mad

Well, I can clearly see you actually read my post and took it to heart. Along with that, you really put in some thought to your reply and really tried to take what I said and in a productive way, counter my argument. Glad to see constructive criticism and concerns are well received. 

[WartyX]

Seriously, if you get your squad caught in MG fire, they aren't getting out. The 'no retreat' doesn't mean you can keep pushing forward. No, it means your soldiers become pinned until they are ripped to shreds.

We recently hosted a beta with about 50 players, many of whom could be regarded as being in the top percentile of CoH players. After many fine-tunes over the course of several hard weeks, they are now in agreement that the balance is pretty damn tight. The system we have for patching will make keeping balance ridiculously easy for both developers and players, so you will see further fine-tunes as the mod grows.

So, thanks for your thoughts, but I suggest you try the mod out before you accuse the Soviet faction of being 'vastly overpowered'.

[Bigpop]

Seriously, if you get your squad caught in MG fire, they aren't getting out. The 'no retreat' doesn't mean you can keep pushing forward. No, it means your soldiers become pinned until they are ripped to shreds.

We recently hosted a beta with about 50 players, many of whom could be regarded as being in the top percentile of CoH players. After many fine-tunes over the course of several hard weeks, they are now in agreement that the balance is pretty damn tight. The system we have for patching will make keeping balance ridiculously easy for both developers and players, so you will see further fine-tunes as the mod grows.

You having top tier players play test is great. I'm a huge fan of that. And if it does turn out to be well balanced then no worries. I was simply saying that it SEEMS that it is overpowered. That being said after I posted that I saw that several people said the Wehrmacht player wasn't really trying to play hard.

So, thanks for your thoughts, but I suggest you try the mod out before you accuse the Soviet faction of being 'vastly overpowered'.

[/quote]

No need to be rude. I'm disappointed that you (especially since you represent the forums and mod) seemed to take everything I said as an attack on this project instead of someone who wants the same things but is just concerned.


At any rate, I want the mod to go well but if I was actually concerned about the balance and game play and took my time to CONSTRUCTIVELY post them, having someone come back and say basically "Either try it or just shut up" isn't exactly the best PR. I want to try it but am cautious about it. I'm not accusing anyone of bad things just simply voicing issues with things that have come up with other expansions and mods in other games. You can't blame someone for being concerned when the company that MADE the game has done little to actually balance it in the current state (which then makes it harder for any dev team to effectively mod things).

Thats why I posted here. To get constructive information that refutes my hang ups and proves that these things were taken into consideration. I'm not going to try it because you tell me to. I'm going to try it because I want to or I won't try it because of my hang ups. Thats my choice. As a mod I would think you would want to project a professional appearance in your replies and not be someone who randomly attacks a person who simply voices some concerns and looks for constructive replies that are informative.  Thats is all I wanted. If all of these points have been considered, tested, balanced and tested again, then just say so. No need to get nasty at all.

Edited because I accidentally had one of my paragraphs in the quote, sorry!

[Loupblanc]

 - I thought the soviets were under powered, for one.
 Apple wasn't even trying. He went to middle map and
 masturbated at vet0 until soviets overpowered him :p
 - Support and PPsH and a lot of other 'fun' soviet abilities
 were not even used for soviets. No SU85? Only one Katyusha?
 No T34/85, etc. So hard to guess. They both were not
 playing at their best.
 - 2x IS2 killed the King Tiger... well... and 2x Shermans
 couldn't. Shermans are T34/76. Up-gunner Shermans are
 T34/85 sorta. IS2 is one step higher. I very much think
 that IS2 should be harder to bring out, I've ranted on
 this at lenght earlier on in another post, but, hey

  2x VETTED Panthers could seriously piss off a Pershing.
  We're not talking 2x vet0 Pz4 here.

 when the mod comes out, me and friends will
 thoroughly torture the poor thing and test things out.

 : I didn't see an ability to OP flags :p
 : I think Soviets should get a T34 call-in ability (basic)
 (Like PE 2x Panther group)(I also think PE shouldn't be
 able to call more than 1-2 groups, but hey
 : T34 tracks are really loud I like that Historical.

 ---
 Bippop : Americans riflemen got retreat and fire up (Para/
 Rangers). British got retreat to captain and lieutenant breaksuppression (Imagine captain flanked the MG and the
 suppressed units retreat to captain - BEHIND THE MG!)

 ... Russian commander is 500 MP and unique. If
 *ANYTHING* it means the Russian ability is inferior
 to the American and British ones. I do have ONE thing
 to say though : Americans and British charge makes troops
 EXAUSTED after said charge. Not the russians. That's my
 only beef

  I'd suggest making cooldown somewhat lesser (-15%?)
 but make russian troops exausted after their charge?

 - T34 should get cage. Not SU85 T34 is skirmisher

[WartyX]

Alright, calm down Bigpop, I have never attacked your opinion. I simply answered your question contructively and backed it up with the opinions of our beta testers, and then suggested you play the mod to further your opinion. I don't understand why you have taken such offence to it.

[Loupblanc]

 WartyX : I understand where he's coming from. He tried
 to be polite, etc. Was worried he'd get flamed, to such extent
 that he reacted as such. Prefect_Ford's response might have
 helped him along that way as well

[Bigpop]

Alright, calm down Bigpop, I have never attacked your opinion. I simply answered your question contructively and backed it up with the opinions of our beta testers, and then suggested you play the mod to further your opinion. I don't understand why you have taken such offence to it.

No worries. Apologies. I'm calm  hahahah I just figured my post was going to get flamed but I want to post simply to find out information about the concerns I listed. And as Loupblanc said, sure enough the first reply (from ford) was rude and flaming which kinda set me on edge and I took your 1st post the wrong way.

Anyhow, I like some of the ideas you posted Loupblanc.

I don't know the cost of the IS-2 but I agree maybe it should be increased, or even a cap of two be put on the Russian player? They just seemed VERY strong for a unit that you can produce over and over!

As far as my example with the MG and flanking, what I was trying to say wasn't that the unit being suppressed could still push forward but they as long as the Russian player organized and timed his units properly they supressed squad would only take fire for a very short time, because he would be pushing forward with two other squads who were flanking the MG. The Wehrmacht player would have to retreat his MG or would lose it. Either way the squad who was taking damage (if done right anyhow) wouldn't have take MASSIVE casualties but rather one or two, which isn't the end of the world for the Russian units! 

[Rikard Blixt]

That being said I think the Russian army is going to be vastly over powered and this shoutcast seems to prove my own points.

Not True, the Russian player was a better player then the wehr one (I know, I've played against both, as both teams).

My first major concern is the lack of the retreat button. On the surface this, as stated previously by the team, makes the Russians more "tactical". However I feel that it takes away from the Wehrmacht tactics. The point I am trying to make with this is that, flanking an MG42 is incredibly easy with the Russians. One 8man conscript section runs in, get suppressed. Then, because (and especially early game!) because the MG42 isn't forcing the Russians off (because they can't retreat!) the MG has 1 of 2 problems. It is A). locked into position to continue suppressing/damaging the conscript squad or B) forced to fall back and give ground in the early/mid game. Once the Russians have one or two squads out, they can send one in to get suppressed and the others to flank, easily pushing off MGs in the early going, similar to the current US tactics but seemingly much more powerful because of the Russians strong late game as well.

Not true either, just change fire of the MG to the other squad(s) + conscrips get shewed up in less (or around) the same time as an US engie squad. Also if one conscript squad goes into a normal mg early game, the Russian player will almost 100% lose the 200 MP one costs.

The IS-2 seems to be a bit strong. I know it was a powerful tank, but 2 of them being able to take out a KT with relative ease (the Panzer IV came in late but still got a couple shots in and they STILL didn't kill one until after the KT was down) and the fact that a Panzer IV is obliterated by these things really kills Wehrmacht's late game. How does a Panther hold up to these? A Tiger? It seems from that replay that a KT is a terrible choice versus Russians because once they have 2 IS-2s your KT is trash. Now granted, it was poorly supported, no argument there. But if you set two up gunned shermans unmicroed against one unmicroed KT, KT wins 100 out of 100 times. Same with Cromwells, or Fireflies. As Apex said, the KT is called "KING" because it is. But as long as you produce 2 IS-2s you crush the thing. Meanwhile if your diligent you can easily decrew the packs either with Stalin's Organ Pipes, with infantry or through combined arms. And if you do happen to lose one of your IS-2s, well just make another. But if the Wehrmacht loses the KT...it can't make another. That is why it's supposed to be so powerful. You get it once and that's it.

IS-2 costs around the same as Panther (if not more actully!). Panther and IS-2 will stand toe to toe with eachother, I think (haven't tested it tho) that IS-2 will slightly win over a Panther. But you also need to remember, the Russian units do not gain veterancy in anyway. A vet 2/3 Panther will probably beat a IS-2.

The "slow" start for the Russians doesn't seem very slow to me. Granted, you don't have an initial unit but the production time and extra resources easily make up for this. You go from having 0 units to 3 units within 90 seconds or so and the Wehrmacht has 4 units if they are lucky. Problem is 2 of the 4 Wehrmacht units are Pioneers who are off capping elsewhere in many instances. Russians seem to speed up quite well and have NO problem in mid/late game. Wehrmacht is widely known as a faction that doesn't "start fast" like the US, for example. This contradicts the Russian's "slowness" because the Wehrmacht's strength isn't in early game, but late game. So technically, both factions start slow and get BIG later. Except Russian's late game is more powerful than Wehrmacht's. And since Wehrmacht doesn't excel at early game (it's a more campy army that holds what ground it has taken and SLOWLY advances after each winning engagement!) at what point do the Axis have the chance to win? In the case of US VS Wehrmacht, US wins by pressuring early, resource denial and aggressive play with flanks. Wehrmacht wins by preventing those flanks and vetting up with partial map control, then pushes as late game comes in. There is a synergy of the two factions. Russians don't have that synergy with Wehrmacht and certainly not with PE because PE's AT is (by any sane CoH follower) considered sub par. 

You can't just think of Wehr vs. Russia. Think about PE vs. Russia also, and Brit vs. Wehr for that point. Both Brit and Wehr are very slow in the beginning, but still both teams have the same chance to win.

The abilities to break suppression aren't normally HUGE issues but when the unit NEVER retreats and breaks suppression regularly it makes MG42s obsolete for Wehrmacht,  a faction that traditionally relies heavily on "combined arms" tactics to overcome their opponent. 

Instead of using MG42 to suppress a unit, use them to kill them. Also having a second MG42 covering the first one, will render the suppression breaking useless. For normal units to get suppression breaking, you are required to pay a single cost of 250 muni, and it only affect squads that are deployed after, none before.

Added responses in bold.

[Joshua9]

Question about mgs/infantry halftracks----

because russians seem to have a significant vulnerability to suppression, but compensate in other ways,

how effective has the balance team found builds that don't include mgs or infantry halftracks?

[BurroDiablo]

He went to middle map and
 masturbated

We were all thinking that... but you said it... well done

[Bigpop]

1st quote from "Bigpop"
"Well, I can clearly see you actually read my post and took it to heart. Along with that, you really put in some thought to your reply and really tried to take what I said and in a productive way, counter my argument. Glad to see constructive criticism and concerns are well received."
ok rather rude sense I said "no but I will be kinda mad" don't you agree?
ok and in agreement with me (not the puppies though) came in Mr.WartyX saying
"So, thanks for your thoughts, but I suggest you try the mod out before you accuse the Soviet faction of being 'vastly overpowered'."
ok well VERY nicely stated and I was going to say the EXACT BLOODY THING
2nd quote from "Bigpop" states in a response to Mr.WartyX
 
"No need to be rude. I'm disappointed that you (especially since you represent the forums and mod) seemed to take everything I said as an attack on this project instead of someone who wants the same things but is just concerned."
[/b]
uhhh well then....
what does "no need to be rude" mean Bigpop? that you can but they can't?

Good to see a forum troll doing his best to get as many posts as possible 

My point was; I wasn't rude. Go back and read the OP. There wasn't an ounce of malice or rudeness in it.

You replied with a troll post that had NO constructive points about the subject that I posted. Your second post in this thread was also COMPLETELY irrelevant to the topic and previous posts in the thread. Everyone had moved on and was commenting constructively about their opinions/ideas/concerns, except you who continues to try and rub salt in the wound. Meanwhile, your ignorance is astounding and you continue to be rude, with NO cause other than to get a +1 and be a troll.

No, I don't think I am allowed to be rude and others have to be nice. But I didn't make pointless rude comments in a thread you created and put serious thought and effort into. Leave your e-peen adolescent attitude to your friends. If you want to contribute information to the thread by all means I would welcome it. But so far all you have done is act like a troll.

[Voop_Bakon]

Look at Bigop all high and mighty with his 9 posts. You cant just come into a forum and talk like you did and not except backlash.

You act like they haven't balanced and play tested the mod at all and then from a 30 min video that was meant to show off the soviets in the first place you assume the IS-2, among other things, is over powered. Let the damn mod come out and play it before you act like an asshat

[Bigpop]

Look at Bigop all high and mighty with his 9 posts. You cant just come into a forum and talk like you did and not except backlash.

You act like they haven't balanced and play tested the mod at all and then from a 30 min video that was meant to show off the soviets in the first place you assume the IS-2, among other things, is over powered. Let the damn mod come out and play it before you act like an asshat

Can we get this topic locked? My original post was meant as a constructive post discussing things I had seen and looking for other opinions and ideas. People have taken it WAY out of proportion, even AFTER the situation was cleared up.

I don't think my post count has any relevance to the fact that I was simply looking for information. I don't understand the comment "You cant just come into a forum and talk like you did and not except backlash."

I didn't talk like anything. I can tell only a couple actually read my post and most are just randomly posting and just trying to jump on the bandwagon. It doesn't matter if I have 9 posts or 9,000 I didn't insult anyone in my original post. I specifically said I am simply looking for information and those were my initial feelings. That isn't "just coming into these forums," and talking however you think I did. The only time I got nasty was after I had been flamed FOR NO REASON.

Again, constructive criticism is great and should be encouraged. Not something that people flame others over. I'm an adult. Not some teenage kid in mom and dads basement who is looking for internet troubles. Please leave rude remarks out. If people want to post on this topic please reply to one of the posts that talks about THE MOD not this BS. 

[GI John 412]

I'm an adult.

Andy Samberg Threw It On The Ground

Ahh, sorry that's just the first thing that came to mind.

There is no reason to be judging people on how much they post.  I myself am fairly new to this and have acted similarly to Bigpop.  Yet I receive no such hate.  Everybody take a chill pill.  Watch the funny video and wait for the release on the 21st.  Hell I'm not even gonna be here then and yet I do not complain about the forums.

BTW, the recent news is that the IS-2 may be capped or nerfed a bit to alleviate this fear.