Ostheer proposal n° 02854

[Loupblanc]

 Well, if you're into yougoslavs, you have choice
 between :
 - Partisans : Communists. PURE anti-German.
 - Chetniks : Royalists. Strong Slovakian racial purists.
 Against germans, against communists, pro german...
 Depends on the time of the day. Goal is anti german,
 but anti communist won over time.
 - Croatians : No idea, but they were strictly pro german.
 Or pro murdering the rest of yugoslavs, so...

 And, yes, I'm only talking about Yugoslavia, here

 Hungarians and Rumanians had their own standing army

 If you're thinking of it being pro-german, I doubt you'd
 want to use Partisans As for Chetniks, depends on the
 year. But since COH is 1943+ just about, it works fine.

 Up to you

 - As for Lord Rommel'ss assertion that OstHeer is pure
 german, if he had his way, there would be 9,000 factions
 all pure blooded germans

 3 German factions already. And Eastern front FOR ONCE
 had allies. More countries participated than italy, germany
 and Japan, for $##$!(#$. Finnish deserve their time in
 the spotlight, as well as the other participants. Go check
 wiki eastern front. Wow!

 Got plenty of Axis posters to that effect, as well
 So, by all means. YES! The primary equipment furnisher
 was german. And german equipments is necessary. I
 think the best is a German-Primary faction with other
 country doctrine-based reinforcements and a
 South/Center/North structure. Thoughts?

 That way north can have finnish, etc
 

[Aouch]

Actually vCoH is 44-45, but EF is from 41-45, if not even earlier. 
As for the Chetniks: I'll let them in as Chetniks, as long as someone has a better suggestion. (Yes, this is a request!  )

However, I don't like the idea of having foreign units in every doctrin.
Sure, the Germans had allies in the east, but they weren't really that important.
Also, I think my proposal has too much infantry units in it, adding even more would be senseless. Reskinned "Landsers"? Foreign inf units have to be special in order to make any sence at all, but special means most of the time special forces and for god's sake: Ostheer shouldn't have any commando/ranger/airborne/knights-cross. Their "special" unit are the Panzergrens.

[Loupblanc]

 : Yea vCOH is 44-45
 : EF ... 43-45 I'd say. Xcept for the KV2 (39/40)
 (Make 'em once only can't be replaced, at least)
 (Or replace with SU122, hehe)(Same function, not rare)
 : Putting Chetniks in german army is about as logical as
 putting american Priests in British army, wait! Er... Lol!
 Xcept for 1 thing. They hates communists more than
 Germans, if that was possible. So on the basis that
 Partisans are in Soviet army (and there to stay?)
 They are an excellent choice

 : Too much infantry. Hmm, well, it's got merit of no new
 models (although Finnish DID have some amusing tanks,
 please add that in) And, as I explained in another post
 about KV2/SU122, T34/KV1, T60/T70, 105mm Howi/Calli
 
 Same function, different flavor?
 : I don't see a problem with foreign units with EVERY
 doctrine. Although you could make a pure aryan unit
 for center, perhaps?

 40% or so of manpower on Eastern Front Axis-wise was
 non-german. So it stands to logic. Of course, they didn't
 stick around when things started going too badly for
 germans :p

[ford_prefect]

I think his goal is to...................make his posts so god damm long that it will make us fear him cause honestly dude you can put just "water mellon water mellon..........." all you want in the middle cause like only 3 people would notice

[Loupblanc]

 Hey,I can make 'em short too

[ford_prefect]

 Hey,I can make 'em short too

go ahead and try for a weak I DARE YOU.

[Voop_Bakon]

Week

Sorry, I'm a grammar Wehr sometimes 

[Loupblanc]

 Same. I was looking at that 'weak' all evening long.
 Just staring at it, and unable to reply... because... I was
 at a crossroads in life :p

 To cross it or not to cross it, pondered the duck...
 That is the question. How week

[Aouch]

NEW CONCEPT

OLD CONCEPT:
Techtree:

Doctrins: 

Not used units: (Propably for campaign-use)

• Mörser-Trupp - 4 soldiers armed with 1x 8cm GrW34, 2x Kar98k. [375mp 4p] ✔
  Veterancy:
  
  • Vet 1 - "Build sandbag-position"
  • Vet 2 - 2x MP40
  • Vet 3 - "Fire smoke-grenade" OR "Fire incendiary round"
• 3.7cm PaK 36 - 4 soldiers crew this light AT-gun named "Heeresanklopfgerät", due to its inability to penetrate thick armor. [275mp 4p] X
  Veterancy:
  
  • Vet 1 - "Focused firing" (breakes the tread to immobilize enemy vehicle)
  • Vet 2 - 2x MP40
  • Vet 3 - "Camouflage" OR "Load Stielgranate 41"
• SdKfz. 251 - Troop-carrier armed with a MG34. Can transport 12 soldiers / 3 squads. [220mp 20f 4p] ✔
• SdKfz. 11 - Halftrack used as troop-transporter, artillery tractor and also as chassis for the SdKfz. 251. Can carry 12 soldiers / 3 squads [200mp 2p] X
• Raupenschlepper Ost - The RSO functions as a forward camp (→ mobile HQ). Ability: "Build up" (Similiar to British HQ-Trucks. When built up, RSO can reinforce soldiers and repair vehicles within a certain range around the SdKfz.) / "Mobilize" (Break down the forward camp. RSO is now movable.)  [350mp 20f 4p] X
• Mobile HQ - This SdKfz. 11 carries all stuff with it, to build up a forward support base. Ability: Build up (Similiar to the British HQ-Trucks. When built up, it can reinforce soldiers and repair vehicles within a certain range around the SdKfz.) / Mobilize (Break down the forward camp. The halftrack is now movable.) ✔
• Kübelwagen - Fast recon vehicle. Unarmed. [220mp 2p] ✔
• Gebirgsjäger - 4 elite soldiers armed with 4x Kar98k. Can later get either AT (2x PzB39) or AI (→ sniper) capabilities. Ability: "Use binocular". [400mp 4p] X
  Veterancy:
  
  • Vet 1 - "Throw grenade" OR "Fire Panzerfaust"
  • Vet 2 - Feldwebel
  • Vet 3 - 2x PzB39 OR Zf. Kar98k
• MG-Trupp - 4 soldiers armed with 3x Kar98k, 1x HMG34. ✔
• Heavy Panzergrenadiere - 4 elite soldiers armed with 2x G43, 2x StG.44. Ability: Plant Hafthohlladung (needs upgrade "Men against Tanks!"). ✔
  Veterancy:
  
  • Vet I - Panzerschreck
  • Vet II - "Grenadeshower" OR "Engineattack" (the engine of the attacked tank is destroyed with Panzerschreck)
  • Vet III - "Sprint" OR "Heroic Charge" ("Heldenmut"; temporarily unsuppressable)
• PzKpfW. II Ausf. C - Light tank armed with a 2cm KwK 30 L/55 and a MG. X
• PzKpfW. III Ausf. J - Improved Version of the PzKpfW. III. Comes with better armour and the 5cm KwK 38 L/42 X
• SdKfz. 124 "Wespe" - This self-propelled artillery unit has a 10.5 cm leFH 18M L/28 attached on PzKpfW. II. X
• PzKpfW. 38(t) - (Replaces PzKpfW. III Ausf. E) This czech tank was after the invasion of Czechoslovakia adopted by the Wehrmacht and also given to its eastern allies like Romania and Bulgaria. [300mp 45f 6p] X
• JgdPz. 38(t) "Marder III" - (Replaces "Marder II") Effective tank-destroyer based on the Pz 38(t) and armed with a captured russian 7.62 cm PaK 36(r). [400mp 40f 8p] ✔
• PzKpfW. VI "Tiger" - (Replaces "Elefant") Call in a heavy "Tiger"-tank. [800mp 180f 12p] ✔
• StuPz. IV "Brummbär" - (Replaces leFH 18 18/40) Armored artillery unit with short range. Capable to penetrate armour to a certain extend. [500mp 75f 10p] ✔
• PzKpfW. IV Ausf. E - Main battle-tank of the OH. Armed with the short 7.5cm KwK 37 L/24 and therefore not really effective against heavy soviet armor. [400mp 80f 8p] ✔

OLD CONCEPT:
Techtree:

Doctrins:  [/list][/list]

[Loupblanc]

 Vet : Tanks : I like a lot!
 Although I'd like V1/3 to have options?
 Should have lots of options
 Mechanics are already there, from PE vet system

Reward Units : Pz4Brummbar vs Wespe erm... depends.
As long as Wespe is the natural one. Brummbar is an oddball
Reminds me of another tank, though. Hmm. Brummbar should
be munition cost to fire (like the AVRE) it's a big puppy mortar.

 Pz3 and Pz2... weak for 1943-1945 no?
 Those are perfect for T26/1940 T34's but not T34/85,
 SU85, IS2... Awesome for a campaign or a Barbarossa mod,
 but? Thoughts?

 I love the work you've put into this, though
 I really really love the nod given to the other nationals

 - Storch/Stuka rocks. Very good.
 I THINK I've seen a Me109 denies planes to enemy thing?
 I don't like that one. Too situational, no?
 Potentially OP vs USA-Paratroopers/British as well.

[Aouch]

* Added a Vet 3 upgrade.
Vet 1 for tanks? Actually, every vet unit has one vet-state, where you can't chose. Puts some flavour in the "chose one out of two"-system. 

Mechanics are already there, from PE vet system

What?
For "Brummbär"/"Wespe": Mhhh, you've a point here...

PzKpfW. II/III are in for early tank support. In the late game, especially against soviet's heavy tanks, they'll be kinda useless.
However, due to the unit-pools, you can of course play a T2off/T3def-tactic which can be still effective against Brits/US because it mainly focuses on fast tank support (Pz II/III) with nice supporting-units (Marder for AT and "arty-wasp")

No ME109 in there. 
Maybe you've meant the SdKfz. 7/1 with the quad-AA-gun. (Here I'm a bit unsure. Maybe replace it with an 88?)

However, I still need one unit each for T3neutral and "Finnish Support Groups"-doc.

[Loupblanc]

 - Yea but tank vet 2 has no choice is what I meant
 - PE Mechanics. I meant the vet system, you can choose
 offensive or defensive vet upgrades. So the coding is already
 there (Or something to work from, anyhow).
 - Wespe is a weaker Priest (more fragile, same gun, no MG)
 And Brummbar is a more powerful/slower reloading StuH42/105
 (Although they're both on the Pz4 frame) I don't mind that
 they have different functions. After all, the Pz4IF/Hotchkiss
 PE swap is exactly that, isn't it? Same for Wehr Stug/Marder
 2 matchup What strenghts/weaknesses do you propose
 to make it work out? (Note that hotchkiss is fragile, where
 the Pz4IF is resiliant).

 Pz2/3 : Prove to me that there were still Pz2/3 running
 around on battlefield then Puma has pretty much replaced
 the role, no? I know Pz2/3 were on easterfront, but not
 in 1943/1944-5. Were they?

 'Arty-Wasp' eh? Lol. 'Wespe' is fine
 
 ME109 air interdiction is.... meh. Don't want that
 SDK7/1 with quad 20AA. Meh, it's a HT with 4x 20mm.
 PE has Pz4 TANK with 4x20mm. No, no. I meant ME109
 plane thing. If there was such a thing as air interdiction,
 the allies would have it first
 Sure, I don't mind a mobile 88 that needs to lock up
 before firing. Easy to do, even. Lockup mechanics are
 in-game (PE) just make unit unable to fire until then.
 On a HT bed would be good. Just make it more vulnerable
 in return (there HAS to be a price) Like... HT vulnerable
 
 
 Finnish Support Groups : Well, you said something about
 BT-Short arty (StuH42/105 on BT frame) I love that one.
 Finnish also had a StuG wannabe, and a Pz4 wannabe.
 Use those. Especially the Pz4 wannabe. Tauren? Forgot
 the name.

  Doing some research... look what I found!!!!
 
 WW2 "Tali-Ihantala 1944" Jatkosota" Combat Scenes - Eastern Front War Movie- Finland vs Soviet Union
 
 Cmon, admit you hate me now *Grin!*

[Aouch]

• Of course tank vet 2 "has" a choice. 
• @ PE Mechanics: Oh, that you've meant. I thought at PE repair pioneers, who don't exist... 
• "Wespe" is actually on the Pz 2 chasis. If you had read my proposal, you would know.

I don't mind that
 they have different functions. After all, the Pz4IF/Hotchkiss
 PE swap is exactly that, isn't it? Same for Wehr Stug/Marder

That's exactly how I wanted it to be.  [/li]
[li]Pz 2/3: Puma is already part of WH, so we need something new. Also, the Pz 2 is the base for "Wespe" and "Marder" -> less work for the modeler. Same for Pz 3/StuG 3.
KV-2 was also more or less outphased in 1944. And do you really believe, the Panzerlehrdivision rolled with H39s against Shermans and Churchills? 
Last but not least, the Pz 2 is a nice recon-vehicle with decent AI/"anti-light-vehicles"-capabilities, whereas the Pz 3 can be a real pain in the *** for the allies, if it comes to early and tear their ALVs to shreds.  [/li]
[li]88: Added it in.[/li]
[li]StuG-wannabe: Actually, the Finns used German StuG IIIs with finnish painting and emblems. Thus IT IS a StuG.  [/li]
[li]@ the movie: I saw StuG IIIs, a lot of captured T-34/76 and one looked like a KV-1.
The only "real" (though even those weren't) finnish tanks in WW2 were 18 BT-42 (-> russian BT-7s) and 6 L-62 (-> swedish/hungarian)[/li]
[/list]

Oh, concept updated (though not the topic-post, I'm still not sure).

[Loupblanc]

 
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_II_Finnish_tanks
 
 Nice ressource Still didn't find it. Tank called something
 like a Taran, or Tauren. Grrrrr
 
 - I meant Tank Vet1 has no choice, sorry
 - Sorry about 'Mechanics' Hate misunderstandings
 - Er, you insult me. Lol. Of course I know Wespe is a Pz2
 Oh, ok, I see what you mean. From a modeler's point of
 view. As well, it would be fine for 'campaign' work
 - KV2 was more than outdated. T35 even worse
 - Why, yes, I'd roll a renaud hotchkiss against Church
 and Sherm's any day of the week! - Not. Lol.
 Local defense, perhaps. Not Panzer Lehr :p
 - True (on Pz3)(Same as Pz2 above on campaign)
 - StuG4 in-game right now Hehe, I know, I know.
 - !! I thought the different paint and symbols made it
 into a different tank-class! Meh, no, no, I meant
 another tank altogether. Tauren? Taren? Grr. But, yea
 in 1943-1944, StuG was their most numerous tank,
 and it also helps the modders. So I'm fine with it.
 Besides, skinners love to torture tank's appearances
 - The BT-42 was a decidedly finnish design. Soviets
 used heavier tanks to mount big guns.

[Aouch]

Mhhh, I've updated my suggestion.
Got rid of Pz II and all vehicles based on it.

Now the whole proposal looks a lot more "tidied up". Also, there aren't anymore a sh*tload of tanks and infantry, so it fits more into the CoH-universe. 
For example there're only 6 standart-tanks, however, alltogether there're 12 different tanks, 4 heavy guns, 4 light vehicles and 7 inf-units.
10 of them is already in CoH or needs only some minor changes while 4 are nearly finished by someone out of the EF-Team and 5 are released or planed by non-EF-modders.