Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: Who was the best commander in WWII?  (Read 70631 times)

Offline bastex

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2009, 01:27:24 AM »
i chose patton
he kicked rommels ass
he let monty run for his money
his army helped in the botb alot by pushing the germans back
if he was allowed he would have bin in berlin a week eurlyer
then that fool zukof that only won whit a minimum casualty list of 1 milion a battle !

i know somethings about the western front (i dont kno everything ill never will but the eastern front i kno s**t so exept that the russians won whit more losses then the germans so that ruled out any russian commander the french did nothing good in ww2 so not them ether the brittish had 1 good tactick let the yanks push we will cover.)

btw that about the r*pe enc enc i hope u know there are more ppl ra*ed by the allies then by axis troops

so respect for all german officers and commanders !
yes .... im sorry ><
bcouse i was  born as a complete utter bastard

Offline kitekatus

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #61 on: August 25, 2009, 10:08:12 PM »


btw that about the r*pe enc enc i hope u know there are more ppl ra*ed by the allies then by axis troops

mostly rape was done by soviets at end of war and in realy sick ways!!
 I think best general in WW2 was K.G. Mannerheim ,leading army of ~300k ill equpied soldiers(but very well motivated)and fighting of soviets for 3 months with them
 is what makes him in my poinion best general in ww2
"There are no desperate situations, there are only desperate people."
Heinz Guderian

Offline Subutai

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #62 on: October 10, 2009, 07:31:41 PM »
Missing Guderian and Mannstein.

Offline SS112

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #63 on: December 02, 2009, 07:42:18 AM »
Rommel hands down

Offline Loupblanc

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #64 on: December 02, 2009, 11:18:40 PM »

 but the loss of civilian lives in the case of Germany was incomparably smaller than that of the Soviet Union, in which at least 20 million civilians were killed by the Germans. When the Red Army invaded Germany in 1944, many German civilians suffered from vengeance taken by Red Army soldiers (see Soviet war crimes). After the war, following the Yalta conference agreements between the Allies, the German populations of East Prussia and Silesia were displaced to the west of the Oder-Neisse Line, in what became one of the largest forced migrations of people in world history.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes

 I like Guderian and Rommel, myself :)
You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity

Offline UeArtemis

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2009, 07:37:29 PM »
From here
Machine translation

The topic of mass violence was used against the civilian population of Germany by Soviet troops to enter the territory of the Third Reich, in the last months of World War II was used by Nazi propaganda with the aim of education in the German people to the Red Army as a deadly enemy and strengthen the resilience and fighting spirit defender troops. Emphasis was placed on coverage of the documented executions of Soviet troops against the civilian population caught in the war zone in Nemmersdorfe (East Prussia) in October 1944.

In the postwar period, the subject raised by the immediate parties to the hostilities, the Soviet dissidents (Alexander Solzhenitsyn, Leo Kopelev). Official Soviet historiography bypassed the issue in silence.

At the beginning of the XXI century, this issue has received coverage in the Western media through the publication of contemporary Western scholars such as Anthony Bivor, Cornelius Rayen, etc.

War comes to the German territory

At the end of 1944 direct the fighting that had fought the German army outside of Germany, came to the borders of the Third Reich. Millions of residents of the eastern parts of the country, did not expect such a rapid onset of the Red Army fled in panic from approaching the front under the influence of horrific rumors about what horrors await them with the arrival of Soviet troops. In winter conditions, the chaotic retreat and brutal fighting, many refugees were killed on the road.

The Red Army, after passing through three and a half years of bloody battles in their own territory, in the course of the encountered numerous specific policy of destroying evidence, was held in the Soviet people against Nazi occupation forces. These facts are used by Soviet propaganda, teaches soldiers and commanders of hatred and vengeance the enemy. Writes in his book «The Fall of Berlin» British historian Anthony Bivor,

When the troops of General Chernyakhovskogo 13 January [1945] began an offensive in Eastern Prussia, political worker front produced the slogan: «Soldiers, remember that you are entering a den of fascist beast!»

In this situation, could not be surprised by the massive acts of revenge, which the German population was subjected to in recent months of war - looting, robbery, arson, destruction of property, bessudnye shootings, killings and rape.

For such crimes on the territory of the German troops were involved as the other allied armies, and, obviously, the former foreign workers, forcibly removed to Germany during the occupation.

In the first months at the end of the fighting acts of revenge against the German population continued during the ethnic cleansing and deportation from the territories, who quit as a result of war to Poland, Czechoslovakia and the USSR.

Nazi propaganda

As he wrote in his book «The Last Battle» ( «The last battle») American journalist and writer Cornelius Rayen, Assistant reyhskomissara Goebbels Dr. Werner Naumann confessed to him in private conversation:

«Our advocacy on the Russians and that the population should be expected of them in Berlin, was so successful that we brought the Berliners to the state of extreme terror».

There have been numerous cases of suicide from fear of the coming Soviet troops and despair. For example, in one urban district of Pankow only been recorded 215 cases of suicide. The sense of hopelessness increased due to refugees from East Prussia and the other eastern provinces of the Reich of the horrors and deprivations to which the German population was subjected to the arrival of the Red Army.

Many officials and the ordinary man in the street thought that to save his life can only be passed into captivity Anglo-American troops, coming from the west. Writes Anthony Bivor Germans could hardly count on the indulgence of the Red Army after what had to go through the Soviet and the Polish population in the years of Nazi occupation.

In his diary for March 2nd, 1945 g of the Third Reich propaganda minister Goebbels J. wrote:

Before me is the order of Marshal Konev Soviet troops. Marshal Konev was in this order against the looting carried out by Soviet soldiers in the eastern German territories. It contains some facts, exactly coincides with our data. Soviet troops invade primarily available in the eastern areas of the German stock of vodka, before beschuvstviya drunk, wearing civilian clothing, a hat or a cylinder and travel by bicycle to the east. Konev requires commanders to take stringent action against the expansion of Soviet troops. He also points out that the burning and looting may be made only if ordered. Characterization, which he gives to these facts, very interesting. It shows that in fact in the face of Soviet soldiers, we are dealing with scum steppe. This is confirmed received by us from the eastern areas of the atrocities. They really are appalling. They can not be replicated, even in isolation. First among these is the terrible instruments, from the Upper Silesia. In some villages and towns of the countless victims of rape all the women from ten to 70 years. It seems that this is done on orders from above, as well as in the behavior of the Soviet soldatni can be seen as a clear system. That we are now a major campaign to expand domestically and abroad. Colonel-General Guderian volunteered to read to the representatives of the foreign press and the famous proclamation of Marshal Zhukov, and then made publicly questioning several officers returned to us from Pozena (Poznan) and have seen with my own eyes the devastation produced and committed atrocities.

History

A German journalist Marta Hillers (1911-2001), author of the diary «Eine Frau in Berlin», which she led for the period from 20 April to June 22, 1945 in Berlin, wrote:

To me came the widow Wendt: «I poiyti and to help us with translation, Frau. We have a very good Russian, all safe. »Ms. Wendt, a single woman with a fifty-year purulent dermatitis in rubber knickers. ... The small kitchen was stale air and tobacco smoke. In the glare of candles, I distinguish two women and three Russians. Before them on the table I saw a lot of canned goods, most without an inscription, perhaps, the German military stocks that Russian amass by robbery. The widow then pridvinula to imagine a Russian bank. At the request of women, I began to translate them to what they said. Of the three Russians, no one knew me. One, called Serjoscha, moved me and put an arm around the waist. Another Russian intervened and said: «My brother, for God's sake, leave her alone». And Serjoscha away from me. I was surprised. A speaker was young and handsome face. Dark-haired, educated. His eyes were burning. His hands - the white and narrow. Now he looks at me seriously and said in broken German: «Do not be afraid to». Frau Wendt whispers that this Russian name is Stepan, he had lost after a German bombing attack on Kiev wife and two children, but he is forgiven, and that perhaps it holy. Now, the third Russian pushed me a little, and pock-marked, opened his pocket knife. The knife he gives me and suggested, through gestures, that I ate. The bank was tushonka. Fatty, and large pieces, I throw them in the mouth because it was hungry. All three Russians looked at me with pleasure. Woman Wendt opened the kitchen cupboard and showed us rows of canned goods. All three boys feel very comfortable here. These two women, and repulsive, Mrs. Wendt with eczema, as well as ex-mail address were as mice, bespectacled and with a stunted appearance. How can I transfer them to shame. On the sky, why these people felt this way? I could sit there for a long time. Stepan calming waves radiated protection. I admired him as a picture, it reminded me Aljoscha of The Brothers Karamazov. But the volatile widow, she worried that the beds will be only one Mr. Pauli. While our men, and even the wounded, determined not afraid of the Russians.


Modern Western sources

In Western sources, especially in the recent past, provides a large number of materials on issues related to the looting and violence by the victors against the civilian population of Berlin.

On this occasion, Carl Bam, professor of history at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, said:

«[...] Of course, not everyone behaved well, but the minority has done enough.»

Irish journalist Rayen Cornelius (Cornelius Ryan) in his book «The Last Battle» argued that estimates of doctors with whom he spoke, raped by 20 000 to 100 000 women.

The American Journal «October» 1995 article by Professor Atiny Grossmann «A Question of Silence: The Rape of German Women by Occupation Soldiers» (see Atina Grossmann) details of how these figures were obtained. According to her, despite the collapse of the Nazi state, the health care system continued to function. In Berlin, the doctor with the consent of the Protestant churches have clients - victims of rape, abortion is free of charge. All that is required of women - is to provide written evidence of his signature (affidavit). Such evidence for Berlin had been received from 20 000 to 100 000 (the researchers admit that some of them - false). Article Grossmann noted the uniformity of all these «evidence» - rapists are mostly described as «the Mongolian, or Asian-type». Explaining the surge in the number of abortions, which indicate many authors, Grossmann argues that «nonmedical or noneugenic» nemok for abortion in the Third Reich before the start of 1945, were banned. Not even contraceptives are sold - they were distributed only among ostarbayterov. Characteristically also, that in the «evidence» of women cited as the main motive for abortion is not moral, and social and economic aspects (for example, that she could not afford to have another child).

The film and book Helke Zander and Barbara Yor «BeFreier und Befreite» the authors assume that the number of women in Berlin who have been raped (some - several times), more than 100 000, but the data vary widely. The number of 1,9 million was received by feminists Yor and Zander «on the basis of Hochrechnungen (projections or estimations)» - that is, extrapolation, and evaluation.

Measures of Soviet commanders to combat violence and looting

In the four years of war and occupation of the Soviet Union lost more than twenty million people killed on the front, shot and tortured in captivity, victims of the bombing and shelling of Soviet cities, slave labor and terror in the temporarily occupied territory. In Berlin alone, the Soviet offensive forces lost more than 78 thousand people dead and more than a quarter of a million wounded. Death and deprivation during the war years came to every Soviet family, and hate the soldiers and officers who came to the bloody fighting on enemy territory, has been infinite. At the present time and Russian historians acknowledged that the abuses of the local population by soldiers of the Red Army, was the spring of 1945 alarming. Preventing violence is not possible, but it still was kept, but over time and kept to a minimum.

In January 1945, on the assumption of the Red Army in Germany in East Prussia and Silesia, the Soviet command had taken serious measures to prevent the mass violence against civilians. January 19, 1945 he was the supreme commander of the signed order on the avoidance of ill-treatment of the local population, which was communicated to all personnel. The relevant orders of the subordinate parts and components have been given to the Military Council of fronts, the commanders of armies, commanders of divisions, etc. For example, the Order of the Military Council of the Belarusian-2 Front (commander Marshal KK Rokossovsky) were required to shoot looters and rapists to crime scene.

20 April 1945 he was issued a directive stakes Supreme high command commander of troops and members of the military council of the Belarusian-1 and 1-st Ukrainian front number 11072 on the changing attitudes towards the German POWs and civilians:

1. Need to change attitudes to the Germans as a prisoner of war, and civil. Contact with the Germans better. Ill-treatment of the Germans is their fear and make them stubbornly resist, do not squeeze into captivity. Civilians, for fear of reprisals, organized in gangs. This is disadvantageous to us. A more humane attitude towards the Germans, we will facilitate the conduct of hostilities in their territory and, undoubtedly, will reduce the persistence of the Germans on the defensive.
2. In parts of Germany to the west of the line of the mouth of the River Oder, Fyurstenberg further Neisse River (west) to create the German authorities, as in the cities to put burgomasters - the Germans. Ordinary members of the National Socialist Party, if they truly belong to the Red Army, not to touch, but only to detain the leaders, if they did not have udrat.
3. Improved treatment of the Germans should not lead to a decrease of vigilance and cronyism with the Germans.

- The rate of the Supreme high command - J. Stalin

Commanders of fronts has been ordered to bring the directive «to every officer and soldier of existing forces and institutions Front» and «to parts testing guidelines TOV. Stalin all categories of personnel ».

Public awareness and educational work politorganov accompanied by stringent punitive measures by the military commandant and the military prosecutor's office. According to military prosecutors, in the first months of 1945 for the abuses against the local population had been convicted by military tribunals for more than 4 thousand officers and a large number of rows. Several pilot trials ended in the death penalty.

2 May, 1945 g of the Military Prosecutor 1 st Belorussian Front, Major-General Justice, L. Yachenin in its reports on the implementation of directives stakes Supreme high command and front of the Military Council reported:

... ... Military Prosecutor's Office demanded that the military prosecutors and military connections to take personal control over the execution of critical instructions, and all measures to ensure their implementation. On the basis of military prosecutors issued special orders to bring the facts incorrectly to the German population were made solutions to give the perpetrators to justice, etc.
With regard to the German population of our troops certainly made a significant breakthrough. Facts aimless and (unfounded) Germans shootings, looting and rape of German women has decreased significantly, however ... some of these cases were still recorded.
If the Germans shooting at the present time, almost did not occur, and cases of looting were isolated in nature, the violence against women are still in place, has not stopped yet and baroholstvo which consists of walking our troops on the dumping apartments, the collection of all things and objects, and so e.
Violence, especially robberies and baroholstvom extensively involved repatriated, the repatriation of the following paragraphs, and especially Italians, Dutch and even the Germans. And all these ugliness dump our troops ...

It is hardly possible to expect immediate change in the situation, and even in late May, the Chief politupravleniya the 1 st Belorussian Front, Lieutenant-General Galadzhev reported:

Directive bids Supreme high command to change the attitude towards the German people of the overwhelming mass of troops of the Front understood correctly, the attitude of the Red Army soldiers to the civilian population of Germany in recent times had changed. Now we can frequently observe instances where individual soldiers admitting abuses in relation to the German people, call to order their own comrades.
This however does not mean that we are for a short period of time has been able to achieve an absolute breakthrough in the relations of troops to the German population. It must be right to say that in front of yet there are people who can not come to terms with changing attitudes to the Germans. It is primarily those people whose families are affected by the atrocities the Germans, and they have personal accounts of revenge. Particularly prevalent sentiment, expressing dissatisfaction with the fact that for the German people set high standards of supply. Having said that, the soldiers and officers referred to the fact that the Germans in Berlin are now receiving food and other products more than some families of troops in the Soviet Union.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 08:00:52 PM by UeArtemis »
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Offline ford_prefect

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #66 on: December 08, 2009, 07:58:54 AM »
Did loup hack your account? ;D

Offline Loupblanc

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #67 on: December 08, 2009, 08:38:49 AM »

 I was thinking that too, but all he did was copy-paste :)
 It's damn interesting, though, and I read it all :D

 I don't copy-paste much.
 I just rant a lot. Then refine what I said.
You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity

Offline Sovereign

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #68 on: December 24, 2009, 09:21:29 AM »
Patton was by the end the standout gen but Ivan was good and also that one gen from Italy that was one of the very few competent ones Mussolini had.

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Offline Loupblanc

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #69 on: December 24, 2009, 03:56:13 PM »

 I liked Nimitz :p
You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity

Offline Bigpop

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2010, 06:18:14 AM »
Rokossovsky played a significant part in the battle of Kursk :)

Where the heck is Guderian?  No list of WWII generals is complete without Heinz :P

This

"Hurry" Heinz Guderian was the best field commander of the war for any army of any nation, in my opinion. The man CREATED the blitzkrieg doctrines, developed them, worked on them, taught them and utilized them with a sense of situations that was un-paralleled. Without him, the armor doctrines of WWII wouldn't have been developed (or not at least as in depth as they were) and as a leading practitioner of these tactics his men won victory after victory.

There is very little doubt that Guderian should have been a Field Marshall. The only reason he never rose to that rank (and thus was overshadowed by other men like Rommel) was because he never was a "yes man" to Hitler. At least 6 times and about half of those in person!) Guderian stood toe to toe with Hitler and attempted to get him to change his plans, listen to his field commanders and tactically, do the right thing. He was always shot down of course, but there was no man who was more fine of a commander than Guderian. God just didn't make them any better than Guderian.

Offline Loupblanc

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2010, 07:21:55 PM »

 So...
 
 Guderian never got the job because he was
 the man for the job? :)
 
 - He sure wasn't a good diplomat, lol. But a fine soldier.
 - Someone said diplomacy was the art of saying Niiice
 doggy until you found a large enough stick ;)



You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity

Offline funnyme

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2010, 10:36:15 PM »
Hi,

Only two from Germany , Have voted Carl Rudolif Rundshtedt (Germany) though ....

Rommel , In my opinion is a master tactition , But not the best general ...

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funnyme
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Offline Bigpop

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2010, 07:39:10 AM »

 So...
 
 Guderian never got the job because he was
 the man for the job? :)
 
 - He sure wasn't a good diplomat, lol. But a fine soldier.
 - Someone said diplomacy was the art of saying Niiice
 doggy until you found a large enough stick ;)

Well your not really looking for soldiers/generals to be diplomats.

For example Gerd von Rundstedt performed very well in the early war. But he was not one of Hitler's favorites. By the mid war he was relieved of command and then placed in command in the West. He was again sacked because his ideals didn't meet with Hitler's. Now that might be a blemish on his record. But that doesn't mean he was a bad commander.

Guderian did so much for the Wehrmacht, even prior to the war. When Germany was just starting to build it's military after disobeying The Treaty of Versailles, they had huge swaths of land and bases they were borrowing from Russia, IN Russia. These training grounds for the Wehrmacht is where the theories of Blitzkrieg were developed. So Guderian was instrumental in the theory of armor tactic theories, strategies and the actual execution/implantation OF these things. Along with that then, he was also the most successful panzer commander of the 4 in Russia.

If Hitler would have stuck to his own original plan and allowed Guderian to attack Moscow much earlier, they defenses wouldn't have been ready and the "gate" to the city could have been flung open by Army Group Center's two Panzer Groups.

Guys like Von Manstein and Rommel had excellent military service records, without question, but they didn't have the contributions prior to the war in the '30s that Guderian had which is why I believe he was the best.   

Offline Loupblanc

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Re: Who was the best commander in WWII?
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2010, 11:26:52 AM »

 I vote for what Bigpop said :)
You know, there are many people in the country today who, through no fault of their own, are sane. Some of them were born sane. Some of them became sane later in their lives. It is up to people like you and me who are out of our tiny little minds to try and help these people overcome their sanity