Ideas for Italian Command Tree

[Darren Marshall]

I will post here some ideas for the italians in the reward doctrine tree:


Ideas for Italian Command Tree:

- Territorial Control

2CP Scout Motorcycle

(An italian soldier of "Bersaglieri" on "Moto guzzi" armed with MG Breda 30)

2CP "Camicie Nere"

(Call in a Battalion of Camicie Nere who will help to keep frontline clear from partisans and enemy sniper)

3CP "Semovente L40"

(Call in a Semovente L40 who will bring artillery firepower on battlefield)

- Winter Warfare

2CP "Alpini Tolmezzo"

(Call in a Battalion of Alpini, troops specialized for Mountain and Winter Warfare)

2CP "Courage of the Alpini"

(For 30 seconds all soldiers are inspired by Alpini's courage can't suffer suppression fire)

3CP "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore"

(When the land is too steep for the advance you can call in the fighter Macchi MC 202 who will attack enemy position)

- Aggressive Defense

2CP ATG 47/32 Mod.38

(Allows you to construct a 47/32 Anti tank Gun, successfully used against medium armor in Russia and in particular in the Don Area)

2CP Auxilliar Defense Troops

(Call in a Group composed of: 3 man squad equipped with the excellent Mortar 81mm, 3 man squad equipped with HMG Breda Mod.30, 5 man squad of "Bersaglieri".)

3CP Italian's Tank Support Group

(Call in a Semovente L40 and L6/40 Tank)

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

2CP Scout Motorcycle

(An italian soldier of "Bersaglieri" on "Moto guzzi" armed with MG Breda 30)

Problem with this layout is that you have a Motorcycle at 2CP which is a bad idea since they are the weakest (HP wise) vehicles in CoH, arriving so late it will probably become obsolete.

2CP "Camicie Nere"

(Call in a Battalion of Camicie Nere who will help to keep frontline clear from partisans and enemy sniper)

It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

3CP "Semovente L40"

(Call in a Semovente L40 who will bring artillery firepower on battlefield)

Eh, the Semovente L40 is an anti tank vehicle not an artillery :p.

2CP "Alpini Tolmezzo"

(Call in a Battalion of Alpini, troops specialized for Mountain and Winter Warfare)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

3CP "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore"

(When the land is too steep for the advance you can call in the fighter Macchi MC 202 who will attack enemy position)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description. Strafing run? Bombing run?

2CP ATG 47/32 Mod.38

(Allows you to construct a 47/32 Anti tank Gun, successfully used against medium armor in Russia and in particular in the Don Area)

Would be fun to have at 2CP, soft AT and probably act as an infantry gun (same as ISG)? (have a barrage ability)

2CP Auxilliar Defense Troops

[...] 5 man squad of "Bersaglieri".)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

3CP Italian's Tank Support Group

(Call in a Semovente L40 and L6/40 Tank)

Might arrive surprisingly well in the game.

So yah, your concept has lots of gaps. Back to the drawing board soldier!

[Blackbishop]

I'm against using Semovente 47/32 and Fiat L6/40 as late game call-ins though. Unless they do something special, but regularly the former sucked against medium tanks, so, by the time you get it, its already obsolete.

The "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore" is a fighter plane with a similar role than the P47 Thunderbolt, so I guess he suggest a strafing run.

[chaosval3]

Uh... It's just call-ins?

There are no passive nor active abilities. You need to balance your doctrine. There won't be enough manpower in the world to call all of this in, even if you had a resource blitz. Seriously.

Also, we are sticking to the 3X3 layout for doctrines, not less or more.

So, I suggest you take a look at how the regular doctrines for Americans and Wehrmacht are designed, and then return with a more appropriate design.

[Darren Marshall]

2CP Scout Motorcycle

(An italian soldier of "Bersaglieri" on "Moto guzzi" armed with MG Breda 30)

Problem with this layout is that you have a Motorcycle at 2CP which is a bad idea since they are the weakest (HP wise) vehicles in CoH, arriving so late it will probably become obsolete.

2CP "Camicie Nere"

(Call in a Battalion of Camicie Nere who will help to keep frontline clear from partisans and enemy sniper)

It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

3CP "Semovente L40"

(Call in a Semovente L40 who will bring artillery firepower on battlefield)

Eh, the Semovente L40 is an anti tank vehicle not an artillery :p.

2CP "Alpini Tolmezzo"

(Call in a Battalion of Alpini, troops specialized for Mountain and Winter Warfare)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

3CP "Macchi M.C.202 Folgore"

(When the land is too steep for the advance you can call in the fighter Macchi MC 202 who will attack enemy position)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description. Strafing run? Bombing run?

2CP ATG 47/32 Mod.38

(Allows you to construct a 47/32 Anti tank Gun, successfully used against medium armor in Russia and in particular in the Don Area)

Would be fun to have at 2CP, soft AT and probably act as an infantry gun (same as ISG)? (have a barrage ability)

2CP Auxilliar Defense Troops

[...] 5 man squad of "Bersaglieri".)

Same as above: It's a historical name but no description on abilities, weapons, roles etc...

3CP Italian's Tank Support Group

(Call in a Semovente L40 and L6/40 Tank)

Might arrive surprisingly well in the game.

So yah, your concept has lots of gaps. Back to the drawing board soldier!

I appreciate constructive criticism. I will try to improve the ideas. The major goals it is balance?

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

The major goal is a well themed and balanced doctrine that will add new ideas, new strategics and new gameplay moments for the faction.
A well designed doctrine is a synergy between active and passive abilities. You will always need stuff for munition sink. Call-ins should be limited and well placed.
It is difficult to create a doctrine. It is not looking in wikipedia for italian keywords and make a list out of this search results. Have a feeling for the faction and try to add new moments to this feeling.
Thats a CoH EF doctrine.

[Darren Marshall]

Italian Command Tree (2.0)


- Frontline Defense





2CP "Bersaglieri" Battalion (300MP)
Call in the support of one L6/40 Tank with a "Bersaglieri" squad, these soldiers are the elite of Italian Army, armed with Carcano Mod.38 and hand granade. They had a special ability called "Carica dei Bersaglieri", this ability will be active for 30 seconds, the squad will be able to move very rapidly and can't suffer suppression fire.



2CP "Macchi M.C.202" Strafing Run (150MU)
The Italian's Fighter will attack the enemy with a devastating strafing run.



3CP Anti-Tank Reserve Group (500MP+100MU)
When the frontline are colapsing due to a enemy tank attack you can call in the AT Reserve Group. Composing by two L40 and a squad of italians pioneer who armed with panzerbuchse had the ability to construct AT-Roadblocks and AT-Mines.

[Darren Marshall]

Second part of italian command tree

- Behind the front

2CP Secured supply lines (200MP)
With the italians protecting the supply lines in the behind, the frontline can recive more supplies than before. This ability will increase by 50% MU and Fuel for 2 minute.


2CP "Battle of Isbuscenskij" (100MP)
The heroic battle of Isbuscenskij see the italians cavalry charge and defeate the soviets. The news of this heroic battle will grow the morale of troops. All troops recive a bonus for 30 seconds and they can't suffer suppression fire.

3CP Italian Off-Map Artillery (300MU)
The big italians artillery behind the front will destroy the enemy positions. 30 Seconds of artillery bombing on the indicated point of the field.

[Blackbishop]

Certainly it looks better this way. Hypothetically talking:

2CP "Bersaglieri" Battalion (300MP)
Call in the support of one L6/40 Tank with a "Bersaglieri" squad, these soldiers are the elite of Italian Army, armed with Carcano Mod.38 and hand granade. They had a special ability called "Carica dei Bersaglieri", this ability will be active for 30 seconds, the squad will be able to move very rapidly and can't suffer suppression fire.

It is too soon to have Elite units roaming everywhere . We can give them the Breda M30 as upgrade and they would have the ability to throw grenades.

2CP "Macchi M.C.202" Strafing Run (150MU)
The Italian's Fighter will attack the enemy with a devastating strafing run.

I'm not sure if we can get new models at this point, so it would use the Messerschmitt Bf 109G instead. Although I agree the plane seems iconic for Italians.

3CP Anti-Tank Reserve Group (500MP+100MU)
When the frontline are colapsing due to a enemy tank attack you can call in the AT Reserve Group. Composing by two L40 and a squad of italians pioneer who armed with panzerbuchse had the ability to construct AT-Roadblocks and AT-Mines.

I recognize the tune but let's change the rhythm. Let's move the Bersaglieri squad here and the Pioneer squad to take the former's place in the other ability. But the most important part, you would need to convince a player about how he/she could use a couple of Semovente 47/32 if they come so late. What use would have they at this part of the game? They look like veterancy gifts to enemy players because they lack good armour, their guns are crap, they use some population that you could be using for something more useful and the worse part is that you get two of them ! To be honest in their current state I doubt they could be very useful in midgame either due to the lack of turret.

Also, not because it is an Italian tree it means it will need to have Italian units only. So, I'd add an upgraded(means armoured skirts and gunner) Beutepanzer T-34/76, give two squads of Bersaglieri and perhaps one Semovente 47/32 for 800MP. Putting the brave actions of Italian soldiers aside, they won battles thanks to German armoured support too.


Here comes the second part:

2CP Secured supply lines (200MP)
With the italians protecting the supply lines in the behind, the frontline can recive more supplies than before. This ability will increase by 50% MU and Fuel for 2 minute.

This seems fine I guess. If not can be tweaked.

2CP "Battle of Isbuscenskij" (100MU)
The heroic battle of Isbuscenskij see the italians cavalry charge and defeate the soviets. The news of this heroic battle will grow the morale of troops. All troops recive a bonus for 30 seconds and they can't suffer suppression fire.

Nomenclature aside, the idea might work with a bit of tweaking.

3CP Italian Off-Map Artillery (300MU)
The big italians artillery behind the front will destroy the enemy positions. 30 Seconds of artillery bombing on the indicated point of the field.

Seems fine.

[Darren Marshall]

Italian Command Tree Final Version.

Italian Command Tree (3.0)


- Frontline Defense



2CP Anti-Tank Reserve Group (250MP)
When the frontline are colapsing due to a enemy tank attack you can call in the AT Reserve Group. Composing by two L40 and a squad of italians pioneer who armed with panzerbuchse had the ability to construct AT-Roadblocks and AT-Mines.



2CP "Macchi M.C.202" Strafing Run (150MU)
The Italian's Fighter will attack the enemy with a devastating strafing run.



3CP Heavy Defense Support (800MP)
Call in the support of one L6/40 Tank (Who can be upgraded with armoured skirts) and a Beutepanzer T-34/76 with 2 "Bersaglieri" squad, these soldiers are the elite of Italian Army, armed with Carcano Mod.38  (Can be upgraded to Breda M30), AT Granade and Hand Granade. They had a special ability called "Carica dei Bersaglieri", this ability will be active for 30 seconds, the squad will be able to move very rapidly and can't suffer suppression fire.


- Behind the front

2CP Secured supply lines (200MP)
With the italians protecting the supply lines in the behind, the frontline can recive more supplies than before. This ability will increase by 50% MU and Fuel for 2 minute.


2CP "Battle of Isbuscenskij" (100MP)
The heroic battle of Isbuscenskij see the italians cavalry charge and defeate the soviets. The news of this heroic battle will grow the morale of troops. All troops recive a bonus for 30 seconds and they can't suffer suppression fire.

3CP Italian Off-Map Artillery (300MU)
The big italians artillery behind the front will destroy the enemy positions. 30 Seconds of artillery bombing on the indicated point of the field.

[Capitanloco6]

Just a thought:

Would it be possible to add HEAT ("Efetto Pronto") rounds ability to the Semovente as a vet ability, to give it more usefulness later on in the game? I guess it could be an ability similar to the US ATG APC rounds.
Also, since I believe it is already modeled, would it be possible to have a flame tank upgrade to the  L6/40? That would make it much more useful for the time of the game it would come, being a fast infantry killer.

[krupp steel]

I am not sure if adding the Italian doctrine to the German side would do any good. Most of them fought bravely, but many did not want to fight under Mussolini and were just conscripted to fight and were not under the same fanaticism as the Germans nor did they really like each other that much. The only war they won was in Ethiopia, where the enemy would just be using old spears. Additionally, they ended up switching sides like they did in WWI so in some cases they should actually be fighting against the Germans.

Or we can follow through with all this and have a German version of the conscripts. 10 man squad of Italian soldiers with low-quality training to make up with their numbers, and they all have rifles too. If possible, we can incorporate some sort of surrendering mechanism (like BotB mod) where they lose a certain amount of health/people and are under suppression and the squad surrenders, but only for this squad though, since they were known very well to surrender to the Allies. They will be very cheap and easy to reinforce with only 200 manpower per squad, since they will be the only unit susceptible to surrender and they will be like conscripts in battle, perhaps even worse.

[Blackbishop]

@Agent Thompson
Come on, that's basically the same thing people say about Romanians. Although as you can see, it is a bit tricky to make a good tree for them due to the equipment used.

@Darren Marshall
I disagree on your tree in two parts of it:

1) The first ability in LHS is, so far, more or less the same than the one in the Romanian tree, just than you get two Semoventes 47/32 and one squad of Italian pioneers instead of one Panzer 38t and one Romanian sapper squad. I'd not do that. It might be better to give the L6/40. Also, getting two of them might be too much given the cost of the unlock. Let alone the L6/40 works better as a scout unit too(like the Soviet T-60).

2) It is the first time I hear about the L6/40 beig able to use armoured skirts. I don't think it ever used it and even if we think about giving it just to give it an edge against enemy vehicles, that upgrade would be better placed for the Semoventes 47/32. Nonetheless, neither of them used such thing and both models are already finished and exported to CoH so no further additions would be planned. The only upgrade available for the AC would be the flamethrower one and the Semovente 47/32 itself in case it would be necessary.

Semovente 47/32 can be used in the group call-in, given it has the stats to back it up. Adding the "Effeto Pronto" ability(like @Capitanloco6 suggests) to make it have better penetration sounds good, but it might need a bit of tweaking to make it attractive and useful. You can't just spend munitions to active HEAT shots at every tank because it bounce everything else you shoot at it. Perhaps an overdrive-like ability, perhaps camouflage, perhaps lockdown like Brits tanks with sandbags, etc. And that's what I meant last time I asked you about what where you planning to do with this unit in late game.

[Darren Marshall]

I am not sure if adding the Italian doctrine to the German side would do any good. Most of them fought bravely, but many did not want to fight under Mussolini and were just conscripted to fight and were not under the same fanaticism as the Germans nor did they really like each other that much. The only war they won was in Ethiopia, where the enemy would just be using old spears. Additionally, they ended up switching sides like they did in WWI so in some cases they should actually be fighting against the Germans.

Or we can follow through with all this and have a German version of the conscripts. 10 man squad of Italian soldiers with low-quality training to make up with their numbers, and they all have rifles too. If possible, we can incorporate some sort of surrendering mechanism (like BotB mod) where they lose a certain amount of health/people and are under suppression and the squad surrenders, but only for this squad though, since they were known very well to surrender to the Allies. They will be very cheap and easy to reinforce with only 200 manpower per squad, since they will be the only unit susceptible to surrender and they will be like conscripts in battle, perhaps even worse.

I think you must read some books about italy in WWII.
Italy biggest problem was the poor quality of his generals. Unfortunately only 2-3 major generals was competent, like Giovanni Messe.
Another big problem was the absolutely deficit of materials, in fact the ARMIR fought with a very few Anti-Tank equipment, however they hold the line several times against the soviets offensive.
It is very important to remember who the soviets at the Don area broke through the romanian sector, 'cause they lack of AT equipment too.
I suggest you to read "The War in Russia" written by General Giovanni Messe.

[miki525]

Hi, what about making a tree with paratroopers of Folgore as special unit and airstryke of Macchi, and if possible P108 Bomber?