Thoughts On The Ostheer

[Carlos Danger]

Just started playing the mod, bashing the AI for the most part, and these are some concerns I have with the Ostheer so far.

- Landsers feel very strong when they're upgraded. With the MK42(H), the Gewehr 41s (which should probably be called the G41(W) in the game), and some veterancy, these guys become borderline elite infantry. Which isn't a huge deal because getting those upgrades should turn Landsers into pretty solid infantry. The problem is at that point they make Panzerfusiliers and Jagers more-or-less irrelevant. Honestly, Panzerfusiliers feel weaker than Landsers even though they're far more expensive, and Jagers don't come across as a major improvement over Landsers - even though they're supposed to represent elite heavy infantry.

I'm also concerned that the changes you guys are making to the Landsers and Panzerfusiliers are basically going to turn them into carbon-copies of Wehrmacht Volkgrenadiers and Grenadiers. Which wouldn't be cool. 

- Jagers need grenades, or at least some unique abilities to make them more interesting. 

- The Brummbar feels extremely weak considering it comes (8?) doctrine points into the game. I've barely ever had the opportunity to use this thing because it arrives so late in the game, but when I have it doesn't seem like anything more than a glorified StuH.

- The medic halftrack feels kinda silly to be honest. I'm not saying it doesn't work - it works great - but it functions more-or-less exactly the same as the Panzer Elite base upgrade and it seems illogical that you can't use it outside of your home base. I think you guys can come up with a better mechanic.

- The Assault/Support Pool options are interesting in theory, but - particularly in the lategame - they are usually just annoying for reasons mentioned in another thread elsewhere on these forums. I like the idea of choosing between Assault and Support, but it needs to be better implemented.

- The Ostheer seem really, really heavy on artillery. You've got the le.IG18 (one of my favorite units in the game right now), the Panzerwerfer, the Wespe, and the leFH-18. I really don't think the Ostheer needs all those units.

- The Famo just seems like a lame copy of the Bergtiger. I don't think it really needs to be in the game. Give the Bergtiger the ability to resurrect Allied tanks as Beutepanzers.

- Marder II/PaK40. Again, more redundant Ostheer units. Maybe turn the Marder into a reward unit or something. The Ostheer don't need two T3 anti-tank options.

- Same thing with the LMG34 vs. HMG34. It's an interesting idea, but again it just ends up feeling like the Ostheer have two units designed to do the exact same job.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

The Ostheer will receive a major update with the release of our greenlight patch, which will adress most issues you're referring to.

Back in the day we had nothing better than the design that we used in the current release version, and we've reworked the stuff that felt awkward in the course of the last few months.

Greetings

[Magyar]

These are all good points. I'm curious to see how some of them will be resolved.

[maddogb]

yeah good points, would also like to point out:
1 the lack of heavy tanks (panzer 4 seems a bit lame vs things like comet, firefly, churchill and ls2)
2. anti tank grenades seem very week,  last nite playing friend with brits, 3 at nades barely made a scratch on a armoured car
3. how slow it is too finish, waiting till you have 6 panzer4s( is the best number to pretty much be able to wipe out a base) takes a long time to achieve, maybe the new officer will be able to supervise buildings?
4 no default defense gun emplacements makes troops a sitting duck for all the allies easily achieved and deadly mortar crews

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

yeah good points, would also like to point out:
1 the lack of heavy tanks (panzer 4 seems a bit lame vs things like comet, firefly, churchill and ls2)
2. anti tank grenades seem very week,  last nite playing friend with brits, 3 at nades barely made a scratch on a armoured car
3. how slow it is too finish, waiting till you have 6 panzer4s( is the best number to pretty much be able to wipe out a base) takes a long time to achieve, maybe the new officer will be able to supervise buildings?
4 no default defense gun emplacements makes troops a sitting duck for all the allies easily achieved and deadly mortar crews

Point 1: That's intentional
Point 2: Anti tank grenades are meant to disable tanks, not destroy them. Use them together with other anti tank weapons.
Point 3: I don't really see the point of this point. Why do you wait for 6 Panzer IVs? But to answer your question: no the officer won't supervise buildings. It's a combat unit.
Point 4: Dunno what you mean, but emplacements will be improved with hte next version. A bug makes them take too much dmg.

[Grand Duke]

About the OH's AT grenades, I think he might have a point. Currently Hafthohlladung (how do you spell it, anyway?) makes only a bit of damage and only 2-3 seconds of stunning on the target vehicle and you really can't do much during this time. Maybe you could add a small chance (15-20%) of doing a crit (damaged engine, main gun or something) to make the grenades-with-a-very-long-name worthwhile?

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

About the OH's AT grenades, I think he might have a point. Currently Hafthohlladung (how do you spell it, anyway?) makes only a bit of damage and only 2-3 seconds of stunning on the target vehicle and you really can't do much during this time. Maybe you could add a small chance (15-20%) of doing a crit (damaged engine, main gun or something) to make the grenades-with-a-very-long-name worthwhile?

HHL used to crit engines in the past, and it was overall not a satisfying option for the Ostheer AT, and it was quite lame.
HHL are receiving some tweaks with the next version.

[maddogb]

about point 4, i mean the ost have no mg emplacements unless you choose fortress doctrine,  this doesn't make sense in any way, the germans were mostly dug in waiting for an attack yet the highly mobile allies can put up emplacements where ever.
I really like the ost can actually match the allies which i never felt the other german factions could, pity they are still overwhelmingly out gunned by the brits and i know the line, brits are flawed etc but a lot of online players use them and i feel there should be one faction to deal
with them

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Yes, I agree. However 360° buildable bunkers for Ostheer seemd to be over the top in terms of supression power and area control power. That's why they're not buildable at all.
Overall, the Ostheer isn't focused on securing & holding territory (like wehrmacht does), and that's the reason why they receive less defensive options than Wehr. However, we're checking and reworking parts of Army Fortress doctrine and we'll see what we can do about this matter.

About the matter "Germans were the defense and Allies attacked" - The Ostheer is reworked and in the future you'll be allowed to fight with a more defensive start or with a more offensive start.

[maddogb]

cool looking forward to the rework,
oh and in addition to the landser strength in the op i don't feel the increase gained with veterancy makes them any tougher than the brits or the american rifle squads who having more members get to retreat more often especially with the allied mortars who often take out a whole squad of landsers with a single round

[Magyar]

I don't want to take this thread completely off-topic but I think you're exaggerating the strength of the Allies, maddogb, because the Axis actually have superior units in many respects - for example Allied mortars in particular are actually pretty weak and short-ranged compared to the Wehrmacht equivalent. If mortars are giving you trouble it might be because you're not mobile enough with your infantry. Rather than trying to fortify and hold down a specific location with your Landsers you should try to keep them actively moving. Regarding Landser strength: their strength comes from their weapon upgrades, because once you have both of their gun upgrades they turn into crazy killing machines that cut through Riflemen and Soviets like a hot knife through butter. Just because the Allies have more numbers in their infantry squads doesn't mean that Axis infantry isn't remarkably powerful with the correct upgrades.

[maddogb]

@magyar
when i talked of the allies strength i wasn't just referring to the infantry i meant as a whole faction, landsers seem to be equal to un-upgraded brits so tough but easier to kill quickly than paras, rifle squads or brit squads.

[Magyar]

You can't view these factions and their strengths in absolute firepower terms- sometimes their strength lies elsewhere or in how their units are used in unique situations. That's the beauty of CoH. Here's a quick explanation for why the Axis are actually probably slightly stronger than the Allies:

Sure Riflemen are arguably stronger than Volksgrenadiers, but it comes down to how the units are used that really determines who comes out on top: Riflemen's rifles deal more damage per second up close, but Volksgrenadiers deal more damage per second from a distance and so if both squads remain at a distance and have similar cover then the Volksgrenadiers will actually win, especially if the Americans attempt to close the distance and charge head first losing their cover bonus.

HMG teams? Sure the American one deals more absolute damage, but the Wehrmacht one suppresses far faster, which is really the purpose of the HMG and plus the Wehrmacht can build really beefy bunkers for their HMGs which the Americans cannot do.

Mortars? Wehrmacht mortars are far more powerful and outrange the American and British mortars. The Panzer Elite Mortar Halftrack ridiculously outclasses all other mortars, since it is so mobile and has a special fiery ability as well - perfect for incinerating British blobs that are sitting around their Headquarter truck.

Bikes? The Wehrmacht Bike is the best of all light vehicles at countering snipers. The Jeep is a joke incomparison.

Panzershreks? It's not even funny how powerful these beasts are and the Allies have nothing that can even compare.

In terms of tanks: in absolute terms the Wehrmacht are simply better. The tier 3 StuG easily defeats a tier 4 Sherman or Cromwell if they don't keep moving around and that's pretty much the rule that rings true for most tank battles in this game, the StuG, Panzer IV, Panther, Tiger, etc. are far stronger than their Allied equivalents (aside from the Pershing but even that is just a Panther with a stronger gun unless it gets vetted up), which forces the Allies to either use their speed and mobile turrets to hit flank the Axis armour and get rear hits or they try to stay at a distance with Fireflies and Calliopes and bombard Axis tanks without receiving fire in return. In terms of absolute firepower the Wehrmacht would probably come out on top but when we factor in speed, mobility and range then suddenly tank combat receives many new dynamics that forces us to accept that sheer firepower doesn't determine who wins.

Regarding Landsers again: Brit infantry are healthy but they are also useless without a Lieutenant, which forces you to blob your infantry squads, thereby begging things like Goliaths, StuHs or Firestorms to blow them up, which is something that the Ostheer and Wehrmacht don't need to worry about... the British are essentially supposed to blob in a game designed to punish infantry blobbing. Also keep in mind that CoH has many numbers determining combat that you don't see ingame: all we see is that the Americans have 6 Riflemen, but we don't see what their actual hit points are or what type of armour they have, etc. An infantry squad can have a lot of models in it but still be weak rubbish because they have very little hitpoints and a poor armour type (ie Soviet Conscripts) and that rings true for Riflemen relative to elite infantry. Sure Paratroopers or Rangers might have better survivability than Landsers, but they're also expensive elite infantry, not basic tier 1 infantry like Landsers and yet they're still not even that remarkable: Paratroopers'  basic rifles are actual really bad, as in worse than the Riflemen's or Landsers' basic rifles. If anything, Landsers are overpowered because in the latest version released to the public they're better than most/all elite infantry, even though they're tier 1 infantry...

[maddogb]

@magyar
yeah i know what your saying about the wermacht but this is about OST and whilst landsers are  tough its also dammed hard to get enough of them and keep them out there fighting,
 building a second barracks early on in the game is infeasible, they are slow to build tying up the barracks allowing no support units to be built like snipers, also they have to return to base to medic, once they hit suppression fire they are sitting ducks, secondary reinforcement is via the upgraded bunkers all just slowing them down to the point where how tough and powerful thy are is almost irrelevant.
For these reasons the landsers are about right, its the other factors that make them struggle, the upgrade required to get a mortar team when the allies just build the building and start producing etc
The other strange thing is the concrete bunkers and foxholes?
I have often wondered how different the game would be following a slightly more realistic approach, the amount of times i have seen a squad of engineers or troops capturing a VP with no cover surrounded by troops firing on them only to have them succeed the cap and retreat.

[Magyar]

I agree that Ostheer teching is rather awkward and I find the Concrete Bunkers and Foxholes largely useless as well. The Concrete Bunkers in particular are bad since HMG teams cannot set up inside of them to shoot straight ahead, undermining the structure's primary purpose.

I have often wondered how different the game would be following a slightly more realistic approach, the amount of times i have seen a squad of engineers or troops capturing a VP with no cover surrounded by troops firing on them only to have them succeed the cap and retreat.

Well, there's always the Blitzkrieg mod which makes the damages more realistic, but in my opinion it ruins the gameplay of the game as a whole. Sometimes it is frustrating to be in that situation you described but at the same time I think that's exactly what encourages deep tactics in CoH, since you need to flank, set traps and intercept retreat paths to properly eliminate units.