Thoughts On The Ostheer

[Grand Duke]

By the way, I remember one of the devs saying they were going to remake the way Foxholes are implemented, AFAIR they were planning to make it more like an infantry equivalent of the british "Hull down". Can someone please tell us more about this? Is it still planned for the next version?

[Blackbishop]

I'm not sure if it will come in the next version, but that's the idea .

[Wernicke]

Scheiße... Who just krappt in my foxhool?!

[Grand Duke]

Scheiße... Who just krappt in my foxhool?!

If the EF mod will ever get unique unit voices, I demand that this would be one of the Landsers' quotes.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

By the way, I remember one of the devs saying they were going to remake the way Foxholes are implemented, AFAIR they were planning to make it more like an infantry equivalent of the british "Hull down". Can someone please tell us more about this? Is it still planned for the next version?

Yes, that's planned. However if this won't make it into the next version, some tweaks have been made to the Foxhole, and it's now a more reliable defensive option for your infantry units compared to the release version.

[Carlos Danger]

A few additional thoughts after playing some more:

- The MG34 upgrade for the Kubelwagen is too expensive. I have to buy an upgrade from the T1 building just to actually be able to purchase the gun, and then I have to fork over a bunch of munitions to upgrade. Even then, the vehicle isn't terribly good.

- The Ostheer's two Sturmpioneer start with the extra initial manpower isn't well-balanced. It gives the Ostheer the best opening in the game, and by a pretty big margin. The two SP squads (360MP) can cap territory fast and, together, can easily beat the (450MP) British Recon Squad (currently the strongest starting unit) in a fight. At the very least, start the Ostheer off with just one Sturmpioneer squad. Giving the faction two reasonably strong combat units from the get-go is a bad idea.

- The PaK40 comes too late in the game right now. It requires the T3 building and then two further upgrades just to purchase. This gives the Ostheer really weak early-game AT (in contrast, the Wehr can deploy PaK38s at T2). At the very least, I'd switch the PaK40's position in the Ostheer tech-tree with the Marder II's - and even then I think the gun arrives rather late in the game. 

[SchlagtSieTot]

I have always fund it a bit strange that the PAK was a part of the assault pool, and the Marder support pool.
It would make more sence if these two switched, because the PAK is a more stationary weapon, and the Marder a more mobile gun fitted for manoeuvre and speed.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

A few additional thoughts after playing some more:

- The MG34 upgrade for the Kubelwagen is too expensive. I have to buy an upgrade from the T1 building just to actually be able to purchase the gun, and then I have to fork over a bunch of munitions to upgrade. Even then, the vehicle isn't terribly good.

Kübel is decent for its cost. You have to compare it to the other starting vehicles (jeep, bike, schwimm). From those 3 it's certainly the best. PE scout cars and bren are better of course, but OF factions are broken anyways.

- The Ostheer's two Sturmpioneer start with the extra initial manpower isn't well-balanced. It gives the Ostheer the best opening in the game, and by a pretty big margin. The two SP squads (360MP) can cap territory fast and, together, can easily beat the (450MP) British Recon Squad (currently the strongest starting unit) in a fight. At the very least, start the Ostheer off with just one Sturmpioneer squad. Giving the faction two reasonably strong combat units from the get-go is a bad idea.

Recon squads are strong, but in combat they still suck. Their stats are significantly worse than normal Infantry sections.

If you have 2 Sturmpio squads (which is 6 soldiers with mp40 & 70hp per squad member) it's 100% the same as if you'd play wehr and have 3 pioneers (6 soldiers with the same weapon &70hp each). Also, if you decide to start with capping with your sturmpios instead of building you have to delay your combat units quite a bit. Because a sturmpio is trained in ~24 secs instead of 12-15 like Wehr pios or engies. A Wehr player can easily get a total of 3 pioners at a similar time as Ostheer uses their two Sturmpios to cap after building t1 or t2.

Same about Sturmpio capping speed. 1 Sturmpio squad caps at 0.75 (like pgrens). Wehr pios have capping speed of 1.00. If you get 1 additional wehr pio you already have more capping speed than Ostheer (2x0.75 = 1.5. Wehr 2x1.00 = 2.00). On top of that building Ostheer tier buildings takes longer than Wehr tier buildings.

- The PaK40 comes too late in the game right now. It requires the T3 building and then two further upgrades just to purchase. This gives the Ostheer really weak early-game AT (in contrast, the Wehr can deploy PaK38s at T2). At the very least, I'd switch the PaK40's position in the Ostheer tech-tree with the Marder II's - and even then I think the gun arrives rather late in the game.

Yes, we're aware that the higher tiers dont work out well in the current release.

We've spent the last months to rework the pool system and the tiers. Many units are now switched to different tiers. The pool system itself is also different now. The first pool switch is still for free, but after that each switch costs you ammunition and fuel aswell as taking some time to research.

Each tier contains three regular units and two pool units (one assault and one support pool). Both pool units serve the same purpose but work in a different way.

tier 1: anti-cover/anti-building, assault pool - LeIG 18 (which works like a howitzer) and support pool - 81mm Mortar team
tier 2: supression/anti-blob, assault pool - Bombardiers and support pool - hmg 34
tier 3: specialized anti-tank, assault pool - Marder II, support pool - pak 40
tier 4: specialized anti infantry, assault pool - Kugelblitz, support pool - Panzerwerfer (with fire ammunition by default)

This way the Ostheer is played more streamlined and less complicated to tech and to play.

[Campaigner]

Each tier contains three regular units and two pool units (one assault and one support pool). Both pool units serve the same purpose but work in a different way.

tier 1: anti-cover/anti-building, assault pool - LeIG 18 (which works like a howitzer) and support pool - 81mm Mortar team
tier 2: suppression/anti-blob, assault pool - Bombardiers and support pool - hmg 34
tier 3: specialized anti-tank, assault pool - Marder II, support pool - pak 40
tier 4: specialized anti infantry, assault pool - Kugelblitz, support pool - Panzerwerfer (with fire ammunition by default)

This way the Ostheer is played more streamlined and less complicated to tech and to play.

Three regular and two poolunits. Seems good but it seems to be alot of units. Twelve regular units + Sturmpios and doctrinal ones. Then again, the soviets have a high number of tanks. Will see how it goes.

Good piece of info though!   Consider updating your frontpage with this and mention how much is left to do.

[Grand Duke]

Three regular and two poolunits. Seems good but it seems to be alot of units. Twelve regular units + Sturmpios and doctrinal ones. Then again, the soviets have a high number of tanks. Will see how it goes.

Yeah, it seems it's either there won't really be three non-pool units in some tiers, or we'll see the addition of some brand new units. Maybe some doctrinals will be made into regular units? The speculations start now!

T0
Sturmpios
Medic HT + Opel Blitz (maybe these two will be used to fill in the ??'s?)

T1
landsers
kubel
Marksman
LeIg/Mortar

T2
?? (not pzjgers, because they are moved into Support Doctrine)
??
SdKfz.251
Bombardiers/HMG

T3
PzFusiliers
PzIII
?? (not Luchs, as it was made a call-in)
Marder/PaK

T4
Doctrinal tank (Tiger/Panther/Pz4)
Famo
StugIII
Kugel/Pzwerfer

Good piece of info though!   Consider updating your frontpage with this and mention how much is left to do.

I concur! Even these small pieces of information are better than that "waaaaait for iiiit"-style informational vacuum we were in until now.

[Carlos Danger]

I'm not trying to be totally negative (I love the mod, that's why I'm posting here), but I'm dubious that having the LeIG and 81mm mortar require a pool choice at T1 is all that great an idea. Nobody buys artillery/mortars early in the game, so now Ostheer players aren't really going to have to think about their pool choice until they reach T2.

Obviously this is all theory, but on paper I prefer the current Marksman or Kubelwagen choice because those are actually units I might want to purchase at the beginning of the game.

Good explanation on the Sturmpioneer issue, although you can't convince me that the Kubelwagen MG34 isn't overpriced.

but OF factions are broken anyways.

They are - even the original two factions feature some dumb stuff. I wish so much that you guys would break the "we don't touch vanilla stuff" rule

[Grand Duke]

but OF factions are broken anyways.

They are - even the original two factions feature some dumb stuff. I wish so much that you guys would break the "we don't touch vanilla stuff" rule

Hey, Carlos, pardon my asking, but what of the original factions would you call dumb? Not criticising you or anything, just asking for your opinion.
For me the most dubious things would be Wehrmacht's veterancy (when every late game unit is a crack veteran => so no need for unit preservation and micromanagement) as well as some redundant units (Sherman Croc, Ostwind, flamer HT etc.)

[chaosval3]

@Carlos Danger
Actually, the early artillery is almost a must. Soviets often tend to spam cons as quickly as possible. That's where the light artillery comes into play. Furthermore, they are units that contain extreme potential if you keep them alive, time your shots well and make them gain vet. As one of the internal balancers of EF I can tell you from my games with Darc and Ape that the OH early-game arty units are performing extremely well. Nothing like hitting a conscript blob dead center with a LEIG.

On the Kübel topic, I actually think the 30 munitions mg is epic. The standard Kübel is kinda like the Jeep, nothing special. However, once you get the mg42, O.M.G. you can completely shutdown SU early-game. Capping engenery get cut down like wheat in a field.

Most concerns that have been posted on the forums the last few weeks, months even, have mostly been taken care of. The only thing I can say is that you have to wait for the next patch so you can see for yourselves.

[Carlos Danger]

but OF factions are broken anyways.

They are - even the original two factions feature some dumb stuff. I wish so much that you guys would break the "we don't touch vanilla stuff" rule

Hey, Carlos, pardon my asking, but what of the original factions would you call dumb? Not criticising you or anything, just asking for your opinion.
For me the most dubious things would be Wehrmacht's veterancy (when every late game unit is a crack veteran => so no need for unit preservation and micromanagement) as well as some redundant units (Sherman Croc, Ostwind, flamer HT etc.)

Things that come to mind -

- Wehr veterancy like you said (doesn't actually promote unit conservation)
- Wehr Defensive Med Bunker spam (I don't like static defenses or unit recyclers, tbh - the game would be fine without both)
- Allied War Machine
- Airborne Supply Drops (results in strafe spam)
- Off Map Combat Group (not OP, but the most uninspired ability in the game)
- The M3 and Sd.Kfz 251 halftracks need tweaking (right now nobody uses them with just the MGs, unless piospamming vs. Brits)
- Wehr Officer (nobody in the entire history of CoH has ever had a reason to buy this dude)

Not saying that these things are OP/UP or break the game, I just don't think they're very good ideas. The game would be better, in my opinion, if they were removed, tweaked, or replaced.

Anyways, looking forward to the new build.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

But EF wont change vanilla stuff