My take on simplifying the OH and increasing play fluidity.

[anakond]

Hi all,

My ideas will mostly deal with unit tier-distribution and not balance. Unit and tier-building costs will likely have to be adjusted after some of these changes. I need to state, however, that nerfing Landsers slightly (by removing their G41 upgrade) should be allocated highest priority.

Firstly, the current OH problem is that there are simply too many upgrades and switching around to be done, which hampers decision making fluidity. This hampering occuring not in the "planning department", but by plain confusion-making. OH has more "switches" and tier-rules then any other faction. Confusion=bad.

Secondly, since the faction is young, many of units are useless and shit. Not only are the Panzerjagers weak against armor, but they are also cheap and thus cannot lay claim to needing a buff. A cheap, shit unit that comes at 50 fuel into the game is not fun and confusing. Same goes for the LMG team, weak and useless, plus serves the sole purpose of further increasing buildable inf. squad number, hence confusion.

Thirdly, Panzerfusiliers are currently useless as they come at 85 fuel into the game and simply don't cut it. I understand that with the necessary Landser nerf the Panzerfusiliers will gain in importance, but they'll still be coming too late into the game AND they again increase the number of inf. squads varieties which again is a major cause for confusion.

My solution (and I am not a noob or a compstomper, so heed my call):

1) drop Panzerjagers AND Light MG-34 team. Move Panzerfusiliers into Assault T2 slot. Give Panzerfusiliers double AT upgrade at 75+75 muni (like Grens only shittier weapon) OR a single LMG-34 upgrade (cancells out the AT weapon upgrade possibility).

2) drop the T2 optional 30 fuel upgrade - no one in their right mind will spend extra 30 fuel at 50 fuel T2 for a crappy halftrack (that you have to spend muni to upgrade) or an equally shitty leIG18. If these changes will appear to unbalance the T2 in any way, tune the unit costs (especially in case of leIG18, which can potentially be very powerful, but needs to be just a tad better than the wehr mortar with a corresponding increase in cost). That's it for T2.

3) T3 without the Panzerfusiliers should now provide solely armor. Drop the first 40 fuel upgrade unlocking the P2 or the Marder2, increase T3 building cost to balance for it (just remember that Landsers are also weaker now). Same as with the PE only 1 unlocking upgrade per tier (and only for OH T3/4). Have to keep it simpler.

Since I propose dropping the T2 internal 30 fuel upgrade, you may as well increase the building cost from 25 to 35 fuel. Same goes for the T3 building, the cost can be increased to 45 fuel. The rest of the spared fuel might be "compensated" by nerfing Landsers.

I have to repeat again that these changes deal not with the balance issues (which I believe are not severe), but rather with the confusing nature of the OH teching tree. The balance will have to be tweaked with tier fuel costs and, possibly, unit costs and effectiveness. I above all implore you not to get rid of the Assault/Support pool switching as it's a major cool feature of the faction, you may as well use it for further overall nerfing (by increasing the switching time/cost) of the OH if such need arises.

[chaosval3]

From what I see here, all I can say is that it WILL actually affect balance as you can get out PF's before Strelky just as an example. Also, it seems that you are getting it closer to Whermacht with the PF's being like Grens(another example). EF-team deems everything that is along those lines as invalid. Also, Tom and I also tried it this way, but they want to see replays. So upload replays and then they will consider your mentioned stuff

[anakond]

Yes, I was saying it would most likely affect the balance even with the initial proposed changes (Landser nerf, T2 35fuel, T3 45fuel). It'll have to be worked out by the player base and fixed with the building and unit pricing. It is moving somewhat closer to wehrmacht, but there is pool switching and a different veterancy system, so it'll never quite be wehrmacht. After all we all know what relic's most radical departure from the formula had turned out to be, so it never hurts being a little conservative.

What replays are you talking about? This is not a balance rant.

UPDATE

All of my above observations and propositions concern the OH vs US match-up, since:

1) US is the core faction and cannot possibly be considered OP or unbalanced by any at least somewhat decent player. Therefore I have chosen to measure the balance against an established element of the core game.

2) There isn't much stuff you can do with the US creativity-wise and teching is very straightforward.

—

I have doubts about Landsers needing a nerf after a game I've just played. Need more testing with US vs OH.

Steam name: TipsyExcess

[Wingflier]

I completely agree with OP's suggestions. Light Machine Gun team is a joke and Panzerfuliers are comparative to Wehrmacht Grenadiers, which are a T2 tech.

The only potential problem I can see with this change is that Panzerfuliers may overshadow Landsers after the first 5-10 minutes of the game. However, if you're going to keep Panzerfuliers as a T3 tech you need to buff the living hell out of them.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

I completely agree with OP's suggestions. Light Machine Gun team is a joke and Panzerfuliers are comparative to Wehrmacht Grenadiers, which are a T2 tech.

How much fuel does Wehr t2 require? 35+25. in total 60 fuel.
How much fuel does Ostheer t2 require? 25+35. in total: 60, just like Wehr t2.

Sooo they're both a t2 unit which serve a similar role, and they arrive precisely at the same fuel cost into the game. From timings/mp cost Ostheer is a bit better/cheaper, actually.

It doesn't matter if a unit is in t3 or t4, technically it's still a 60 fuel tech unit and performs like that.

The only potential problem I can see with this change is that Panzerfuliers may overshadow Landsers after the first 5-10 minutes of the game. However, if you're going to keep Panzerfuliers as a T3 tech you need to buff the living hell out of them.

Landsers in their current for are broken anyways. We're working on an internal solution for this matter. We'll release more infos on this matter in the near future.

About the LMG team: we know the unit currently isn't worth its cost and is overshadowed by the hmg34. We're going to fix this also.

[Wingflier]

How much fuel does Wehr t2 require? 35+25. in total 60 fuel.
How much fuel does Ostheer t2 require? 25+35. in total: 60, just like Wehr t2.

Sooo they're both a t2 unit which serve a similar role, and they arrive precisely at the same fuel cost into the game. From timings/mp cost Ostheer is a bit better/cheaper, actually.

It doesn't matter if a unit is in t3 or t4, technically it's still a 60 fuel tech unit and performs like that.

I feel like we may be on a different page here.

In that post that you replied to, I was comparing the OH Panzerfusilier to the WM Grenadier. I did this because, quite frankly, they are very similar in costs/stats.

However, the Grenadier is a T2 tech which you can get significantly earlier than the Panzerfusilier.

Why do I say this?

The Wehrmacht T2 is reached by Escalating to Skirmish Phase and building a Krieg Barracks. All of that costs 60 fuel. However, the Commander will also build a Wehrmacht Quarters before that, so the total before you can finally get a Krieg Barracks up is 75 fuel. However, and this is important, you can get the Krieg barracks much faster than the OH Commander can get the Schutzen War Camp. Why? Because in order to get there, the OH Commander has to build 3 buildings. This time is spent occupying a squad or more of Engineers, which are much more battle-hardy for the OH than they are for the WM, I might add, who must stay in base until all 3 buildings are completed.

The Wehrmacht player can, after the Quarters are created at the beginning of the game, keep his Engineers out in the field building structures, minefields, MG Emplacements etc. until the completely autonomous Skirmish Phase is reached, and only then do they need to return to build the Krieg Barracks.

So yes, it's a question of time and resources. Not only that, but the OH player has to spend 10 more fuel (85 instead of 75) to be able to build Panzerfusiliers. IN ADDITION, I think someone could make a very strong argument that the "Support Modernization" upgrade generally needs to be researched before T3 is considered because of the important halftrack and indirect fire support which is so crucial at that part of the game. The additional Panzershreck for the Panzerjagers is nothing to scoff at either. Skipping those crucial benefits for a slightly better infantry squad (unless you want to spend ANOTHER 40 fuel) seems like strategical suicide. So if you add the extra 30 fuel on top of the current T3 costs and at 115 fuel to realistically reach the Panzerfulisier phase, there is really no comparison between the two.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

well, all u need are landsers anyways in the current Version. we're planning to improve the inner facfion balance With the Nest patch, so overall teching will be better distributed and more fluent.

[Wingflier]

well, all u need are landsers anyways in the current Version. we're planning to improve the inner facfion balance With the Nest patch, so overall teching will be better distributed and more fluent.

With the extremely well-balanced and polished nature of the older Russian faction, I'm sure it will turn out well.

Any idea on when that patch is due out? I'm excited to play it.

[Dreamerbg]

We are still testing, changing and adding stuff to see how it works in game.

IF someone really wish to see our progress - watch this http://www.twitch.tv/easternfrontmod/b/484000139 . Some test games with medium to low skill play from my side I guess but still if you watch carefully you will see most of the changes we are working on.

[Wingflier]

We are still testing, changing and adding stuff to see how it works in game.

IF someone really wish to see our progress - watch this http://www.twitch.tv/easternfrontmod/b/484000139 [nofollow] . Some test games with medium to low skill play from my side I guess but still if you watch carefully you will see most of the changes we are working on.

I watched the replay (all 3 hours of it), I was very impressed!

The changes were fantastic. It seems you split the "T1 option" into 2 different buildings: One which houses the Landsers, Snipers, and Mortar squads and the other which houses some kind of "Officer squad", light recon vehicle, etc. (was hard to tell because it wasn't you using it). In addition, the MK42 upgrade for the Landsers seems harder to obtain somehow. Perhaps you have to upgrade it manually if you researched it after the unit was built, I can't tell.

In this regard they are similar to the Panzer Elite. You choose a starting T1 building which kind of determines the outcome of the rest of the game.

The T2.5 building now seems a lot more reasonable as well. With the Panzerfulisiers, AT Guns, Tanks, and APC all being in the same place, this is a lot more practical than it was before.

Now there is an actual choice of upgrading your Landsers heavily and skipping the Panzerfulisiers, or skipping the Landsers, using Stormpioners in conjunction with the Officers and focusing more on the Panzerfulisiers as your main infantry unit later.

Anyway, I'm very impressed. One thing I didn't understand is why there were 2 different "mortar units" in the same T1 building, but I'm assuming that's just something you're working on.

Keep up the good work.

[Tom]

Also, you better check this thread if you're planning to change the sniper passive cloack mechanic which i don't agree with.  Not being able to cloack your sniper unless there's a bush nearby takes away the best defence that sniper has, its camouflage.

The main ideea is to add a negative zeal to prevent sniper spam, also longer recloack time.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/10886/elite-mod-coh--download-and-changelog/page/18

[Riggsman]

Also, you better check this thread if you're planning to change the sniper passive cloack mechanic which i don't agree with.  Not being able to cloack your sniper unless there's a bush nearby takes away the best defence that sniper has, its camouflage.

The main ideea is to add a negative zeal to prevent sniper spam, also longer recloack time.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/10886/elite-mod-coh--download-and-changelog/page/18

Agreed. Crippling the unit's abilities and it's mechanics is not the solution to deal with Sniper spam. It must be fixed not disabled like this. So suggested solutions ( neg zeal, recharge times ) seem most viable. Sniper is a key unit and force the opponent to create a counter solution, jams the teching wheel. It's necessary and has to be used properly in the game. Current one extremely micro intensive and ineffective. I expect it to be fixed.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

neg zeal? HF fighting vs strafing runs or tank guns.

[Tom]

neg zeal? HF fighting vs strafing runs or tank guns.

just a quote from the forum:

Q: Snipers now have a negative zeal radius of 20 (same as pioneer antispam) where recived accuracy modified by 1.5x for each additional sniper"
That means that if i have 2 snipers they will get insta raped by strafe?


A: No, but it does mean that 2 snipers together will have a 112.5% chance of being countersniped while moving, and an 84% chance of hitting either of those 2 snipers on retreat, compared to 75% and 56% in vanilla respectively.

[Riggsman]

Well that's cool, at least there's a downside of blobbing/spamming and has a punishment somehow and this looks ok for me. It has to be tested this way instead of making the sniper completely useless. Except noob and troll games no body spams snipers, watch high level games you see 1 from each, max. 2. 2v2s have the most spamming rate but anyway with neg zeal, this will be also punished. Look Roo spam, They changed the cost and speed, now no one using it.