New AI Game Challenge For Top Players

[YahVohl]

Hey Guys,

Ok, now you get to call me anything but white.

I watched a war with the AI once on youtube by a fellow I don't recall, but he took on three AI opponents that were set on EXPERT level....all by his lonesome (self.) He kicked their collective butts.
It was pretty impressive and I had seen a lot of VCoH matchup between humans at that time. I still remember it. So, what I am getting at is this..... Why not have challenge matches between humans and the EFCoH AI??? Some might think that is pretty lame.....but I can tell you it won't be easy when outnumbered like that. It would be a huge challenge and I wonder if even the developers can hold up under that kind of pressure.

So.....this is a challenge to any, and all, WHO CAN STAND UP TO THREE EXPERT AI's AT ONE TIME??? And win??

This could make for a great tournament, by the way. The first bracket is The Ostheer (Human Challenger) against the Soviets. The winners advance to the second bracket, The Ostheer (Human Challenger) against the US. The third bracket is The Ostheer (Human Challenger) against the Brits.

Using the same map, like Kalach (I love that map).....lots of bridges and a long map. Anyway, all stats can be recorded after the final round tallied. The player with the greatest stats would win the tournament after the final bracket was completed.

If Expert Ai's are too difficult.....then you can always set them lower. This might be a VERY interesting competition.

What Say YE??

YahVohl

ps...by the way....a tournament like this could be great for getting interest in the MOD and would be very easy to organize at any time, repeat with changes, tweeks, new maps, etc. It would immediately load all the shoutcasters up with new material every time there was a competition. It might also stimulate developers to tweek the AI in new ways that would greatly improve aspects of the game.

[saprize21]

Yeah, would love if they fixed the Soviet AI since they spam millions of tanks.

[YahVohl]

Hey Guys,

I realize this stuff I am "throwing out there" now is a bit "unorthodox", but it can be really interesting (and entertaining) and can work to greatly promote EFMOD.

Just for an example, I just watched a short game of CoH2 and the guy was using a "trainer" (yeah, I know, that is "cheating"....so what? and he was the only human player with FIVE EXPERT AI "players." Oh, gosh, that is so artificial..... Hey, guess what, it was a real gas to watch. Tons of action, and it had a huge number of units all doing their thing.

Point is, "unorthodox" can be good, if it stimulates interest in the EFMOD. Once they get interested they can move on to other things EF has to offer them. Some may never want to play against another person, and I would imagine that would be a large number of people. So what? Why does someone have to love the MOD, and play the MOD only against people??? Doesn't make sense to me. I have played VCoH for years (I had a sever back injury that made it so I could barely walk at all for three years, so I had time on my hands.) I played against the AI, almost always, only a couple of newb games on Relic...that is it.

I watched a vid on a VCoH game not long ago and the way it was done was incredibly interesting. The game was nothing sensational, any more than what we are all used to.....BUT.....BUT....BUT....there was something really unique that this fellow did. He apparently recorded the game......and then went through with a FRAPS recorder and used the replay cam to zoom in, pan out, turn the cam to different views, and got what looked like a Hollywood version of a war movie. It was amazing to watch. Just by changing this filming method, so to speak, it turned the average good game into an epic video. He knew where and when the action was going to take place (it was his replay) and he had his cam "there" to catch it all, and get the best angle to make it look EXTREMELY REALISTIC.

So, what I am saying is just this, there are little changes that can make huge differences.

Ok, here is another one on the theme of AI WAR GAMES....tournaments. There could be brackets against easy, normal, hard, and expert levels. This would open it up to everyone that would want to play (not just top players), but might be intimidated by an AI that they thought would be over their head. So, what is really wrong with Newbie Tourneys? That is how people get started, after all. Right? Some might not remember this so clearly, but at one point in time we were all Newbies. What a scary thought. Ouch.

Also, if everyone had to play Ostheer in the first "weekly tourney", then the next five tournaments could require each of the other factions be played, one each week.  Ya, I know, that is a lot of time, and a big commitment, but if everyone would sign on with steam and then set it up to play EF, maybe the stats could be gotten from Steam??? And there would not need to be any supervision of individual games. It could probably be worked out with steam somehow, I am not that familiar with Steam and what they have available. If they had "clubs" or "clans" that could be set up on Steam for such things.....that might make it easy to do. You guys would know more about this than I.

Also, there are many hundreds of CoH vids on youtube, maybe other sites too. Each one of those vids has a youtube/or other email contact point. A cut and paste job of an invitation to an EFMOD tourney could be quick and easy. Info on the tourney, the MOD, where to download, etc. If you give notice a month before a tourney they will have time to download and practice.

You can set this all up anyway you like. These are just some "off the top" (or "over the top") ideas. You can blame yourselves for all of this, by the way. If it wasn't for the MOD you guys made none of this would be happening.

YahVohl

[YahVohl]

Hey,

Sorry guys, forgot to post the link to that AI Wars game I just mentioned. The uploader must have been using a "trainer" to get that many units. No problem.....very entertaining game!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9GYd3emw_Q


YahVohl

[JuhwannX]

So a tournament, for comp stomping. I direct you to the attached image.

[ubermensche]

Why do you hate us compstompers so much? 

[Miles Dixon]

1 V 3 against AI even on normal will take quite a toll, unless it is a map like you said, coomstomps. I had tried to face against 2 AI at once and it require very fast capturing and mainly on defense till you can hold off their tanks in the mid game.  If use trainers there will be no fun at all, as I personally thinks that VS 3 AI in Expert without any trainer is... virtually impossible?

Why not try against 2 AI first? Sometimes even 2 are quite challenging as even though you can hold them off, when it comes to tanks you might be outnumbered. If you cannot hold them off - bye bye XD

[YahVohl]

Hey Miles,

Yeah, man, taking on high level AI opponents, or just normal level multiples, can be a HUGE challenge. I think the absence of interest in this tells a lot. Most of us know it is often a great game against the AI that results. Some of the greatest come-back games I have ever seen have been against AI opponents. I had some amazing ones myself (it's all relative) and have very seldom played against human opponents. I really prefer the AI.

I was trying to find a link to that game I watched some time ago, where a bloke took on 3 AI Experts. I couldn't find it, though I looked for over an hour. I know it had to do with the map, it was the ideal choke point set up. Even so, it was amazing. I also remember a fellow that took on two AI Expert opponents and won handily as well. He was using the map with three islands in the middle and I think 8 bridges. It can be done. He made it look easy too.

I don't understand the disdain held by some for playing against the AI. It doesn't make sense. The AI is what makes the whole thing work anyway. It is the AI that determines the different actions between units with different veterancy levels, for instance. Also, who do they think stops your tank on the way to a location you have sent it to, and engages the enemy "along the way"? Who tells it to shoot, or prioritize armor over infantry? Shoot the AT gun rather than the pioneers? The AI....Maybe I should say "the engine", rather than the AI? Anyway, the most advanced element of the game, and every game, is "the engine". When more advances are accomplished in the AI/Engine amazing things will be possible. This is the real field of science in all this gaming stuff, artificial/computer intelligence. Real "artificial intelligence" is getting the pc to increase the heat without spamming tanks, or jacking up the "body armor", increasing the damage factors of weapons, etc. It is getting the pc to "think" of all possibilities in any given situation, relative to all that is going on "mapwise" in any given moment.....and then to make the "best move." When they come up with an engine that can get this done.....no one will want to play against humans. It is the field of the future, so to speak, and knows no bounds (only the present limitations of the imagination some seem to love to hold on to are slowing this down.)   

Anyhooo.....Maybe some of the best players are afraid to take the challenge. Funny, I didn't think that might occur when this came to mind. It's not like it has to be an open tourney, I mean a skirmish match can be totally in private. How are the developers going to be able to perfect the AI if nobody wants to play against it? That is all necessary to perfect it.....right?

Let's face it. One Master player simply cannot take on four Expert AI's by himself, and win. So, I guess it is not so much a challenge, as it is a fact. Maybe I should change the name of this thread.



Oh, yeah, there is also the possibility that some of the better players don't have the stuffing to take the beating some of them love to give to newbs. That is also something I did not figure into the equation. The p--sy factor.



Hey...just trying to stimulate a little out-of-the box thinking. No offense intended.

hahahhah



Here is an idea, get a bunch of brave contestants, not worrying about what anyone might think of them if the AI stomps them and people find out about it, etc., and let them choose ANY map they want.....then play against any number of AI's ....of any strength.....and They choose one guy to start.....IF HE WINS he gets to choose the next guy to play, if he loses they can flip coins or something (whatever)....  or set up brackets beforehand like regular tourneys. For the next round they could "up the anty" (choose another map and increase the difficulty, or keep the same map and increase the difficulty, change factions, tie one hand behind their back, etc.) until there was only one man standing.....THE WINNER.

On the "trainer" idea......if unlimited resources were the only "tweak"......and numerous AI's were the opponents.....it is more than a little challenge. If instant build, instant upgrades, instant production, is negated......then the "time element" can become a huge issue. The "covering the map" element can also become a huge issue. I am not talking about a single AI opponent on "Easy".....How about four on Expert? Or Three, or Two? How about using a 4v4 Huge map....that in itself is tough against just two normal AI opponents. Probably way too tough for me. Anyway, this is not about me, it is about possibilities for others to get a kick out of EF and show everybody what a great mod it is. Right? I can imagine what some vids of games (like I know you guys can play).....uploaded to youtube....WOW.......talk about epic!!!!!!!! I mean....talk about contagious!!!!!

Sunday Night Fights and The Frontline Network would pale by comparison!!! They won't play EF games anyway....will they!!!??? So, why not BUST LOOSE WITH A BANG and start up an EF shoutcast that has something to really SHOUT about? Everyone will be rooting for the human player...right?

No offense to anyone, but watching the same old guys play the same old games, same old maps, gets so d--n  B...O...R...I...N...G. The EF/Ostheer maps are FRESH....the units are FRESH....and the concept is FRESH. Not boring.

Ok...I have gone on and on now....somebody will be telling me to shut up pretty soon, so I will just shut up on my own , and right now, if not even sooner.

seeya,
YahVohl