Panzerfusiliers

[Cranialwizard]

I have to agree with Riggs, as I really don't see much a real purpose or pull to get panzerfusiliers in their current condition. Yes, Landsers are currently rapeface but unless they're nerfed beyond the point of use then Panzerfusiliers will lose out, since you can buy global upgrades to landsers much in the similar way you do riflemen.

The other problem is the T3 composition. It resembles somewhat of Wehr T3 on paper, but part of the issue behind it is that said units are much, much weaker than their T4 counterparts in terms of combat and even though there is a steeper fuel cost to climb over but as Riggs said, to unlock T3's full potential you need 2 (!) separate upgrades. With the strong capabilities of Landsers and a deep-in support unit package of shrecks, halftracks, all that jazz, a player can definitely hold his own for the better units in T4.

It is much safer to go T4 for the epic StuG since the Marder is in T3, is weaker, and to boot the StuG is in the first half of the T4 building. Not only is it pretty good against tanks but it is also adequate with dealing with infantry. Deviating to T3 just for some non-doctrinal arty isn't really viable either because you have several other options open to you such as the Field gun from T2.

If I skip T3 and need indirect fire I have the OP Lieg from T2, I have Snipers from T1, I have Doctrinal Arty. Why to spend lots of fuel and Mp to get Panzerwerfers which is in a ineffective Tier.

Agreed. Unless you're being a super-turtle there's no reason to go T3 as it doesn't pump enough pressure on the enemy as does T4.

I think Riggs' point about moving the PIII to T3 should be considered. If the PIII is in T3 then there is your "Shock" unit for the tier and it actually becomes a viable option to go that teching since you'll be rewarded for going deep in T3 and you can still keep a little defensive maneuverability. As of right now the PIII is kind of silly as I see lots of players actually switching pools just to go for StuG as they see the PIII as a waste of their time in the end game tier.

If you moved the PIII to T3 I'm not too sure which unit to move around. Perhaps move the StuG to Assault pool in the PIII's place, and move Panzerwerffers back to T4?

But what Riggs says is true, even without a dominance on the field T4 is the way to go because the units you get in T3 are not enough to make an impact. For Wehrmacht this is different because if they pop a Puma against 4x Rifles and a couple flamers that is a big deal, especially if they got BARs, but the Luchs isn't like a Puma in that it can't switch to AT mode on the fly. Also the Puma comes around the similar time of a supply depot and motor pool OR nades+bars, but not BOTH. By the time you pop a Luchs the Soviets have a form of AT up their sleeve as they will see you probably didn't invest in Landsers.

[Todstyak]

T3 is only good for being defensive with the PaK40 or the marder. As for panzerfusiliers, they feel kind like fallshirmjagers without the infliltration ability. they have automatic weapons that work great in close quarters, the have grenades and panzerfausts and are a small squad but im guessing the panzerfusiliers make up for this just like the fallshirmjagers with elite armor (they might have more health than fallshirmjagers too). They are not exactly bad in combat but as many have pointed out, most of your landsers will have vet by now which will prove more effective than fresh panzerfusiliers this post reminded me to ask; what are the health and armor differences between Landsers, Panzerfusiliers, sturmfusiliers and jagers? especially since the last two are doctorinal which means they should have some incentive beyond their weaponry.

[m4chineSpirit]

Maybe the easiest thing to try first to address this problem would be to give us the possibility of choosing to go either T2 or T3 immediately after T1 or even complete liberty of our choices for the first three tiers with modified fuel values to control what comes out and when.

In my opinion, T3 in its current form and unit composition is not attractive option because of the timing of when first T3 unit comes out. It is usually to late to shock your opponent with such units and what they offer firepower wise is decently covered by T2 units and of course T3 is completely inadequate to plan your late game force. So waiting for T4 seems like an obvious choice at the moment.

In any case, full freedom of choosing T1, T2, T3 would allow for some innovative tactics and OH forces. For example, I have been trying out Sturmpioneers as combat units (with those T1 cars in support, holding out for Jagers), with this, holding out for Panzerfusiliers would be possible. This would allow us to play a risky yet aggressive strategy focused on getting fast light armor out supported by PFs. 
     

[TheVole]

Maybe the easiest thing to try first to address this problem would be to give us the possibility of choosing to go either T2 or T3 immediately after T1 or even complete liberty of our choices for the first three tiers with modified fuel values to control what comes out and when.

No, it would make the Ostheer to imbalanced.

In my opinion, T3 in its current form and unit composition is not attractive option because of the timing of when first T3 unit comes out. It is usually to late to shock your opponent with such units and what they offer firepower wise is decently covered by T2 units and of course T3 is completely inadequate to plan your late game force. So waiting for T4 seems like an obvious choice at the moment.

If you played against a human player you would find this is not the case at all, getting an early panzerwerfer can have a huge impact on your opponents early to mid game. Not to mention that you can get a marderII out just about the same time as a T90/SU76 and in a fair fight the marderII will beat the SU-76 and the T90 stands no chance.

In any case, full freedom of choosing T1, T2, T3 would allow for some innovative tactics and OH forces. For example, I have been trying out Sturmpioneers as combat units (with those T1 cars in support, holding out for Jagers), with this, holding out for Panzerfusiliers would be possible. This would allow us to play a risky yet aggressive strategy focused on getting fast light armor out supported by PFs. 

That strategy would never work against a human.

[Todstyak]

MarderIIs ALWAYS lose a 1v1 with a SU-76, even if the MarderII fires the first shot, this happens with the STuG too. Both can't seem to take out a SU-76 by themselves. I think I might just be unlucky though

[TheVole]

It really depends who gets the first shot, they are both an equal fight, but the marders gun is more accurate and if the SU-76 misses one or two shoots in the fight it's dead.

[Xenobane]

As someone said before, on paper t3 looks pretty useful, but in practice t4 owns and there is no real reason to waste time on Marder or Pzfus. Besides, Marder II gets owned against microed T70.

[m4chineSpirit]

Maybe the easiest thing to try first to address this problem would be to give us the possibility of choosing to go either T2 or T3 immediately after T1 or even complete liberty of our choices for the first three tiers with modified fuel values to control what comes out and when.

No, it would make the Ostheer to imbalanced.

In my opinion, T3 in its current form and unit composition is not attractive option because of the timing of when first T3 unit comes out. It is usually to late to shock your opponent with such units and what they offer firepower wise is decently covered by T2 units and of course T3 is completely inadequate to plan your late game force. So waiting for T4 seems like an obvious choice at the moment.

If you played against a human player you would find this is not the case at all, getting an early panzerwerfer can have a huge impact on your opponents early to mid game. Not to mention that you can get a marderII out just about the same time as a T90/SU76 and in a fair fight the marderII will beat the SU-76 and the T90 stands no chance.

In any case, full freedom of choosing T1, T2, T3 would allow for some innovative tactics and OH forces. For example, I have been trying out Sturmpioneers as combat units (with those T1 cars in support, holding out for Jagers), with this, holding out for Panzerfusiliers would be possible. This would allow us to play a risky yet aggressive strategy focused on getting fast light armor out supported by PFs. 

That strategy would never work against a human.

To answer you in reverse order...

Well, to tell you the truth, I only experimented with this tactic to see how a few things work, how sturmpios fare in combat,  find use for other types of infantry rather than Landsers (+PzJ) as well as bring armor up as soon as possible. I know that in the current state of the game with OH being forced to build T1 and T2 first strategy would not work. Not only that, it is absolutely unnecessary as you have access to T1 and T2 units whether you want it or not so you do not save fuel anyway.

With an option to go straight to T3 (smth like extreme PE building choice flexibility), you could transition towards panzerfusiliers more quickly, it is what, 35 fuel now. Besides, what works is more or less a matter of balance and time, just like various pioneer/engineer strategies that worked from time to time in vCoH before being nerfed or countered by different tactics. I remember it still worked against the Brits in the last patch (Pios to Grenadiers to Halftracks and Paks). 


Your second point, you probably know better, I can't play against other people right now until I sort out the graphics stuttering problems. However, I've read through this thread and I see that most people agree with T4 being a better choice than T3 especially if you take into account the modernization delays and fuel costs.


Regarding imbalance, this could be easily solved with tinkering with fuel costs for modernization. I think that only problem for Soviets would be to guess what comes out next.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

t2 as requirement is put into the teching as a version to delay t3 and t4. Just like Wehr's teching is delayed by having to escalate battle phases first or USA having to build a supply yard to get access to t3 or t4.

Ostheer t2 fuel is calculated in the way that Panzerfusiliers arrive at 60f, like Wehr grenadiers, and to additionally delay t4 by another gameplay minute, so you cannot rush a Panzer III within 5minutes of the game where no adequate AT is on the field.

Same counts for the internal teching. T3 modernizations costs as much fuel as you need for Wehr to tech to the next tier. Luchs arriving 25f earlier will doom every player not fastteching to AT guns/AT units.

IF we remove t2 from the teching path, t3 and t4 WILL become more expensive. There is no way that t3 will arrive 35f into the game.

[Shiggythor]

Maybe it would help swapping around the units in tier 3:

As i see it, Luchs+Marder would be a quite usefull offensive combo, while in a defensive position, when i already invested in LeIG and HMGs i want the PaK instead of Marder.
So if T3 had like Luchs and Marder on Assault and could still get both with one modernisation it would be a quite attractive vehicle rush strat, while Paks+Panzerwerfer on the other modernisation (not depending on the first one) where really good if the frontlines are frozen.
 This has also the advantage that u can finetune the timing of the vehicles by separetly changing the fuel cost of both upgrades. Panzerwerfer would and Paks would be out a bit faster, but i cant imagine that to be a really big problem. If it is, just increase the modernisation costs.

[TheVole]

Maybe it would help swapping around the units in tier 3:

As i see it, Luchs+Marder would be a quite usefull offensive combo, while in a defensive position, when i already invested in LeIG and HMGs i want the PaK instead of Marder.
So if T3 had like Luchs and Marder on Assault and could still get both with one modernisation it would be a quite attractive vehicle rush strat, while Paks+Panzerwerfer on the other modernisation (not depending on the first one) where really good if the frontlines are frozen.
 This has also the advantage that u can finetune the timing of the vehicles by separetly changing the fuel cost of both upgrades. Panzerwerfer would and Paks would be out a bit faster, but i cant imagine that to be a really big problem. If it is, just increase the modernisation costs.

Love the idea, who needs balance anyway!

[ubermensche]

I just finished a game on comp stomp. And while I was at it, I did some math for T3.

If I want a fully upgraded T3, I'll need to build the base building (250 MP+35 fuel), then research the modernisation upgrade (150 MP+40 fuel) and then research the ranged weapons upgrade (150 MP+30 fuel). All in all, this costs me 550 MP and 110 fuel. And all that so I can get a Panzer II Luchs, a PaK 40, the Panzerwerfer and the Marder. Or I can spend 350 MP and 90 fuel (or whatever the MP cost is) on T4 and have the superior Panzer IIIs and StuG IIIs right off the shelf. So guess what I'm gonna do?

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

You also get Panzerfusiliers, which you otherwise do not get if you're playing t4. Fusiliers will be buffed next patch, combined with some nerfs to Landsers it will make t3 more appealing compared to now.

Also, Luchs + Panzerwerfers > Pz III/StuG III imo.

[Riggsman]

In order to Buff Fusiliers nerfing Landsers will cause more problems. You can just put a Light tank into T3 and problem is solved. Experimenting some weird stuff on the main infantry will always cause more fundamental problems. SU early game is already too good for Landsers, how you gonna fix it if you put some Superior units in T3? What you say doesn't sound right. The reason of unattractive T3 is not Fusilliers but lack of Assault Armor, I may get Elite Inf with a doctrine as well- both Elite and Support gives such units.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Fusiliers get more supression resistance, something which Landsers fundamentally lack, so they'll be worthwhile getting if you're facing supression weaponry.
And no, t3 is not unattractive because it's lacking armour, it's unattractive because the StuG III is way too cost efficient at the moment. You get a Pz IV gun with good maneuverability for 325mp/50f and Luchs has been nerfed into oblivion because of constant whining from soviet players in the beta. (Although I think that it's performing nicely even with the nerfs. It's just a bit too expensive atm).