Panzerfusiliers

[chaosval3]

Hey there EF-team,

I want to post a major gripe with Ostheer and that is to me that Panzerfusiliers are way too powerfull. They are supposed to be long-range monsters, but right now they are all-round monsters. There is not a single non-doctrinal unit that comes this early and has this much power. If you look at their stats it says that they have 5 points against infantry and they get an grenade assault which is mostly a late-game or doctrinal ability wothout any real cost.

I have no replay so far, but I'm(even by the AI!) getting me torn a new one by these fella's.

I presume lowering their effectiveness a bit would be more fair. Making sure they are still better than Grens and keeping their cost but letting them have lower damage output. They can even beat Guards head-on.

It would make it more fun as to keeping Landsers longer in the game and not wasting all that research on them if you are going to replace them by PF's anyway.

Kind Regards.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Pls provide a replay. Panzerfusiliers are very similar to Wehrmacht Grenadiers in terms of stats and also arrive at 60 fuel into the game.

[TheVole]

Never really found much use for them, landsers do a better job all round and are a bit cheaper.

[m4chineSpirit]

Me too, Landsers are great for more or less everything, if anything they are so good that building any other infantry is almost superfluous. They remind me of American Rifles a lot. So as I see it, Panzerfusiliers are a bonus for choosing not go straight for the fourth level building and a Panzer III/Stug III. 

[ubermensche]

Same here. By the time Panzerfusiliers are available, all of my Landsers have all accumulated a fair amount of veterancy and can pretty much manage all infantry threats, especially after purchasing the Sergeant's promotion.

As a matter of fact, I tend to find all units in the Schutzen War Camp to be more or less...useless. It's probably because I'm a comp stomper because by the time I can build the SWC, the Russians are already spamming their light tanks across the map. So I pretty much just go for the Panzer Kampf Command.

[Miles Dixon]

I think PF is not really useful - even the upgrade of Panzerschreck still not making them stronger. Landerser is better than fusilers. If want to go for AT units, the tanks in early stage like Marder 2 or Pak is better.

[Riggsman]

Since there's no attractive unit in T3 to go for, one of them is this unit for me. I would always use Landsers, even without upgrades, if I loose one get another one and skip T3 and go T4.

T3 is not attractive because it's extremely Defensive even with a Luchs. Luchs good but you can't upgrade them like Pumas, defensless against an AT Armor. I would always spend my fuel for T4 any day.

If you want to make the T3 attractive and useful then Pz3 has to be in T3 because it's too weak to face SU Tank Hall plus there are Stugs and Doctrinal Tanks in Tier 4. By doing this you can add variety to the game instead of T4 rush by every ( smart ) player. Therefore T3 offers nothing to push the enemy.

[Dreamerbg]

Well you rush for a tanks when you have an advantage in general, but if you dont then what ?
Still going for tanks when your enemy already have few T34s for example ? Hell no    OH have some broken point atm when they got fixed it will(must) be verry hard to defend without T3.

[Riggsman]

How you gain advantage with T3 can you explain me? With Fusiliers? Or with Panzerwerfers? Or Marders? T3 doesnt have the impact to scare the enemy or the reward of teching. Good Inf play with T2 support is enough to delay opponents Tank Hall. Get some PanzerJaegers in HT and push back the T34. If the SU player has T34s already and you still waste time on T3, gg, dont waste time then. Except PAK there's nothing there for me and just to get a PAK I would not spend my Resources.

[ubermensche]

I basically build T3 after T4 when I need some artillery support for my offensives. But that's only if I play as Army Elite Troops. Support troops has the Wespe and the Luftwaffe whereas Fortress Troops has the LeFh 18.

All-in-all, T3 isn't very useful.

EDIT: One of the biggest problems of Ostheer T3 is that it requires 2 upgrades to unlock its full potential, unlike the other base buildings. If you don't upgrade them, you only get Panzerfusilliers without any abilities (no MP40s, no Panzerfausts, etc.). So with that cost (building base building+2 upgrades) only to get units inferior to those in T4, I might as well just go for the T4.

Perhaps you devs could put the StuG III or the Panzer III in T3 and take away the Ranged Upgrade thing. It would improve its usefulness a lot.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Panzer III or StuG III in Tier 3 would cause problems in Tier IV
We will see what we can do to solve this issue.

[Riggsman]

If you go straight T1-T4 ( T2 is a must ) to get Pz3, it means T3 is really redundant. But Pz3 it not exactly a T4 tank and Stug is pretty tough and fast, OH Stug in T3 would be very much Wehr alike so Pz3 would fit there better. In this way there would be an option to stay in T3 with a Tank and defensive/indirect fire options. Almost all good Wehr players go T3 because it's pretty good in all forms, T4 is expensive and you miss the window of opportunity to push the enemy. Here, in Ost, this is done by T4 and very quickly. I think this is a problem.

[ubermensche]

Panzer III or StuG III in Tier 3 would cause problems in Tier IV
We will see what we can do to solve this issue.

Well my suggestion is to put the Panzer III into T3 assault and move the Panzerwerfer to T4 support. StuG III will go to T4 assault (it is an assault gun after all). Every T3 needs some form of light-medium/medium armor, which the Marder II can't really count as. And Riggs is right about the Wehrmacht T3, which grants the StuG IV, which is perhaps the most important vehicle in the Wehrmacht if you ask me. If you upgrade it to vet 3, it is even possible to win late in-game without going T4.

In some ways, this isn't very right either because you kind of lack the incentive to go T4.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

If you look at it, the units in t3 and t4 essentially have similar tasks/roles, that's why both tiers are unlocked at the same time.

The point of t3 sort of is that you get specialized units for your tasks - Luchs as a strong AI sniper unit, Marder II as a decent AT vehicle. And if you want to you can also get Panzerwerfers as your non doctrinal "real" artillery and the Pak40, which will ruin all enemy tanks it faces. Panzerfusiliers as a tough unit to support your specialized vehicles with abilities + the mp40II.

T4 was thought of being more expensive, but having more well rounded units in general - StuG III as an improved version of the Marder II, Panzer III as a "better version" of a Luchs, doctrinal tank as alternative to the Pak40, and Kugelblitz as a replacement for the Panzerwerfer.

So, by looking at it t3 would offer you better total AI and the best AT gun to fight soviet heavies and makes you less dependant on fuel. t4 lacks an elite unit to support the more well rounded units, and thus you might want to rely on your doctrinal call in units more instead - Jägers, Sturmfusiliers, Brandenburgers.


I'm not entirely sure about this whole matter, but I actually believe this has a lot to do with Landser's overperformance at the moment. We're working on solutions about this matter and will see what we can do.

[Riggsman]

These suggestions look good just on paper but not in practice Darc. All those "precious" T3 units doesn't come for free, you spend fuel and manpower for them.

Instead of spending my MP on Fussiliers, I would upgrade my Landsers because it's "global". Also I can call in Jaegers if I need Smg type of unit which Landsers also can have with the upgrade.
Marder II - PAK is defensive character units, Panzerwerfers indirect fire support and Luchs is gonna be on the run when T-70s on the field.

If you put PIII in T4 as a "better" Luchs then of course I'll go straight to T4, why to bother microing a Pak or trying not to be flanked with a Marder? T3 is a higher Tier ( T1-T2 are basic tiers) and has to be OFFENSIVE not DEFENSIVE as hell. Ostheer suppose to be Offensive right? Then something is wrong here. Or maybe Soviets are buffed so much Ost needs a quick Pak or Marder all the time? What ya think?

If I skip T3 and need indirect fire I have the OP Lieg from T2, I have Snipers from T1, I have Doctrinal Arty. Why to spend lots of fuel and Mp to get Panzerwerfers which is in a ineffective Tier.
The units you count in T3 one by one sounds good, looks good but as a composition, they are not.  I don't even mention the Pool shifts, which cost another resource called "TIME".

Wehr T3 with only 3 units can win you game and extremely comfortable. Ost T3 has almost twice more units but doesn't have the same effect even. I don't mean that you can't win a game with T3, you can but this would be one in a million vs a decent player.

I declare here to you all; In every single game, I'll skip T3 and go T4 and I will not regret even a second. Who thinks that T3 is better, I challenge.