Some suggestions on Soviet AT infantry

[donthateme]

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NI are OP. They are not core squads. They are given all kinds of buffs to improve their in game performance. They have superior squad stats to begin with and are given super variants of weapons. They are called in at 2CP this isn't balanced against anything but Relics implementation of 2CP call-ins for selected elite squads. I do not suggest that NIs be nerfed except maybe to change the CP cost required to call-in these squads.

I think the DevTeam should switch the order of appearance for Red Tide and Naval infantry for the next patch. NIs are over relied upon in the game right now. That is not balanced from a mod perspective. And I don't think it is good for gameplay.
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IMO NI are fine as they are. How comes that a lot guys and balancers played hundreds of competitve 1v1s and never saw a problem with NI while you think NI are OP by judging and arguing from compstomp-perspective?? Actually I never heard someone complaining about NI.

You should play some 1v1 vs USA-player with air-doc. Lets see what you think about acc/dmg/range and pene of RRs...

And why have you ViP-icon? He? Whats this??

[Mr.ious.Q]

Since the Red tide will be available at 2 CP, anyone could give me a suggestion on how to use it properly ? Since i find it quite wasteful to spend 200 muni on 3 squads of infantry.

[Pac-Fish]

Since the Red tide will be available at 2 CP, anyone could give me a suggestion on how to use it properly ? Since i find it quite wasteful to spend 200 muni on 3 squads of infantry.

No one ever said it was definitive it was just suggested

[GodlikeDennis]

It most certainly won't be coming at 2cps. However, we might have a look at the pop thing.

[Killar]

It most certainly won't be coming at 2cps. However, we might have a look at the pop thing.

The pop thing is the fact why its balanced. You can´t spam it, otherwise you are popcapped. If you are lucky you will use it 2 times in a 1vs1 so you will have 6 squads on the field which gives a huge capping and flanking power but not more. Thats why we can make it cost only 200mun, which its worth it. We don´t need to higher the costs to prevent spamming.

This ability comes very handy if you loose all your concripts and need reinforcements.

[Cranialwizard]

It most certainly won't be coming at 2cps. However, we might have a look at the pop thing.

The pop thing is the fact why its balanced. You can´t spam it, otherwise you are popcapped. If you are lucky you will use it 2 times in a 1vs1 so you will have 6 squads on the field which gives a huge capping and flanking power but not more. Thats why we can make it cost only 200mun, which its worth it. We don´t need to higher the costs to prevent spamming.

This ability comes very handy if you loose all your concripts and need reinforcements.

Keyword Might

[GodlikeDennis]

The pop cost is a little high though. Perhaps removing the pop cost of the commissars (in the same manner as conscripts so squad count is OK) might lower it by 2 and make it slightly more viable.

[Tankbuster]

Or removing the extra Strelky/ guard squad that arrives. (If it switches place with the NI call in). 

[Otto Halfhand]

You'all raise many valid points.

I like the notion that Dennis has for eliminating or at least reducing the CS pop. I think this would work for 1v1 play if makes 3 guards squads possible. I think it is seldom resource effective to research a Squad upg for less than three squads. Fuel costs being the issue in this case.

The 200 muni cost is what makes this ability balanced as much as pop. If you can afford the 400 muni and 20 pop and wish to do so to obtain six squads: two of which are guard squads you don't have to tech for; why not. There will be one less tank or firebase in your Order of battle. To suggest that 200 muni is to much to pay for 3 squads called in at one time is personal tactical preference. I have found using just one call-in of Red Tide does nasty things to my battle planning during any given game. This of course is my own damn fault. I think ultimately the Guards will be switched out of this call-in. Probably for Strelky. Two Elite Squad call-ins on one side of a Tech tree is one too many.

I have an concern that the Balance Team concentrates too much on balancing 1v1 play to the detriment of all the other modes of play in the mod. I do not wish to be critical here. To me it is important that the success of the EF_Mod that 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 play be balanced for both SP and MP in context of the Mod as a whole. Many times I think the crys of OP are based on the effects of Spamming in 1v1. If 4v4 play is considered and each of 4 players builds 2 Katyushas = 8 Katyushas = SPAM. I don't think anyone would consider 2 uses of a Katyusha untoward in this case. I work as an AI consultant for the Devs. I am working diligently to reduce or eliminate AI SPAMs. I know the Balance Team is doing likewise for MP.

Regarding the suggested 2CP call-in cost for Red Tide. Is this really any different than a 2 CP cost for NIs? I think that infantry call-ins should not be available before a 3CP expenditure of CP. I also believe that Tank call-ins should not be available before 4CP expenditure. (Ignore the 2CP Sturm issue. Relic should have corrected that in the 2.6.0.2 patch). Viewing the concept of CP acquisition with dimensionless analysis 2 CPs requires 120 exp points. 3 CPs require 200 exp points and 4 CPs require 280 exp points. (Do not confuse vet exp with CP exps). 2 CP is pretty easy to obtain.

[Killar]

I have an concern that the Balance Team concentrates too much on balancing 1v1 play to the detriment of all the other modes of play in the mod. I do not wish to be critical here. To me it is important that the success of the EF_Mod that 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 play be balanced for both SP and MP in context of the Mod as a whole. Many times I think the crys of OP are based on the effects of Spamming in 1v1. If 4v4 play is considered and each of 4 players builds 2 Katyushas = 8 Katyushas = SPAM. I don't think anyone would consider 2 uses of a Katyusha untoward in this case. I work as an AI consultant for the Devs. I am working diligently to reduce or eliminate AI SPAMs. I know the Balance Team is doing likewise for MP.

You are critical. Thats why you have a concern.

1v1 and 2v2 gameplay is the core of coh and thats what we are balancing. What do you mean with other modes in EF?
3v3 and 4v4 match ups will never be balanced in EF. These are not balanced in coh either and there are only 4 factions avaiable.

Afaik there is no concern about spamming in EF. Do you have a concern?

Pls elaborate your point about the detriment to other modes. Maybe i didnt get your point.

I think that infantry call-ins should not be available before a 3CP expenditure of CP. I also believe that Tank call-ins should not be available before 4CP expenditure.

Why is that?

[Pac-Fish]

Regarding the suggested 2CP call-in cost for Red Tide. Is this really any different than a 2 CP cost for NIs? I think that infantry call-ins should not be available before a 3CP expenditure of CP. I also believe that Tank call-ins should not be available before 4CP expenditure. (Ignore the 2CP Sturm issue. Relic should have corrected that in the 2.6.0.2 patch). Viewing the concept of CP acquisition with dimensionless analysis 2 CPs requires 120 exp points. 3 CPs require 200 exp points and 4 CPs require 280 exp points. (Do not confuse vet exp with CP exps). 2 CP is pretty easy to obtain.

They are not the same thing. Lets say you've been cut off and have little to no fuel or muni. You can still purchase NI with MP which is available to everyone but muni and fuel rely on the engagements you've been successful in. And I dont really see whats wrong with a 2 CP call in. Airborne: 375mp and 2 CP, Stormtroopers: 375m and 2CP, NI: 360 MP IIRC and 2 CP. Commando is 3 CP and 560 MP but everything for brits is more and they are very powerful.

[Blackbishop]

Well, if Balancers cannot find something wrong with Navals and there are no replays to backup the claims, there is nothing we can do about it . In other words they should be fine. Maybe the only problem would be than they do not require something to purchase their equipment unlike Stormies... and unlike Airborne, Navals are capable of handling infantry and vehicles alike for a 2CP call-in. But that can be fixed by setting requirements on their upgrades, not by moving them as second upgrade.

I'm not sure if swapping Red Tide position with Naval Infantry position is a good change. Red Tide is not going to help you that early unlike Navals, let alone that if the current order makes sense(as Sir Shark told us, let alone that you won't use Red Tide that early).

[Cranialwizard]

No one will have 200 munitions in the early game. Then, it's going into upgrades and mines and other stuff.

[Wekwekboris]

Hmmm...I think the TH needs a slight buff to pen or slight buff to damage. Hard to use a TH to keep a puma in control. Ik that at closer range the TH gets more pen than the panzershrecks but so what? The puma will kill you with its 20mm cannon.