Does Panzer elit really represents waffen ss?

[Sommarkatze]

He operated in both France and Africa :3
Hm. This means I was wrong about the song. DAMN :C

[Tico_1990]

He first fought during the invasion of the Netherlands, Belgium and France. He was redeployed to Africa, but when the Africa Korps was beaten, he was again redeployed, this time to France to defend the Atlantic wall (which is the line of defences at the French coast), which as you might know was defeated in this little thing called D-Day.

[vonklaus]

Rommel has a real interesting story from rise to fall I recommend spending a few minutes reading it. Shame his alternate universe self migrated to the USA in T-191 or the South might have won the 4th Civil War.

[maxi1991]

...But i thought general Rommel operated in Africa?

He operated in Africa. But before that he commanded a tank division in france, the(if i remember it right) 7. Panzerdivision. This was the Gespensterdivision or Ghost Division.

[Otto Halfhand]

From my point of view the PE Faction represents generic KampfGruppen,  regardless of their TO&E,  OKW affiliation or political associations. PE does not deal exclusively with Market Garden but also with The Normandy Campaign (around St Lo and Caen in CoH and OF) and Remagen (CoH).

The poem cited below almost certainly refers to THe Ghost Division of 1940.  Rommel was particularly known for relentless advances and for being out of communications. He frequently broke his LOC deliberately when he received an order he wished to circumvent. 200 miles in a day? Poetic licence. Maybe the MC battalion could do 200 miles in a day but no other equipment had near that range of operation. Eight hours in the saddle would most certainly hurt the Heinies Hineys big time as well.

Danger Will Robinson! Rant alert!

• Panzer Lehr: A teaching and demonstration unit. I agree with Lord Rommel's assertion about Lehr being a commander but how found no documentation to support this. Panzer Lehr is frequently referred to as an Elite Unit. Given its hodge podge of equipment and success in combat this designation is dubious. Lehr WAS one of the hardest fighting units on the western front. It was  broken up into KampfGruppe organizations time and again: In Normandy, Market Garden and Wacht am Rhein: where three different "Lehr" KGs faced off against the 2nd Armor, (Dinant), 28th Inf,(Goose Egg), 101st Airborne, (Bastogne) and 4th Armor, (Werden). THe commander of Lehr until 6/7/1944  and during the Bulge was Fritz Bayerlein. Commander of the DAK at Alam al Halfa, 8/31/42.
• "Rommel's Circus": I have never come across this term Sommarkatze but I believe it must refer to Rommel's tenure as Commander of Army Group B in France 1944. Many of the units in Normandy in early 1944 were 2nd rate Garrison troops and Battered Line units. Garrison units were frequently comprised of foreign nationals equipped with obsolete weaponry. Units reassigned from the Eastern Front most often left their Heavy Equipment behind. LordRommel mentioned the decimated SS divisions in Normandy and Market Garden. Of course nobody would consider the 12 SS and Michael Wittman 2nd Rate. (No Tigers in PE though). Much of the TO&E for the units in Normandy during June and July of 1944 was captured equipment. Some like the French R35s were overdue to be "gotten rid of". Some however:

 

• The 21st Panzer division should be included in Rommel's Circus. Originally sent to North Africa as a collection of Ad Hoc units, (aka KampfGruppen).  It was brought up to strength and renamed the 21st Panzer Division. Perhaps the most famous German Division of the war. The leader of the Recce battalion Von Luck  was a master of Kampfgruppe tactics. He  employed his AC's in conjunction with the 88s of the Flak Battalion to devastating effect time and again. As the rear guard of the DAK after El Alamein he can be credited with saving the Africa Korps in the long march to Tunisia. The Africa Korps (Panzer Armee Afrika), surrendered  May 15(?) 1943.
• The 21st Panzer was reorganized in France July 15, 1943. It was in the Normandy sector in MAy 1944.  At that time its TO&E was mostly captured French equipment: H35's, H39s and Lorraines. There were 2-3 companies of Pz IIIs and Pz IVs,(31 total). The only organic unit of the Division was the Flak Battalion(sic): It contained 3 Kos of 88s mounted on HTs, (There is a reward unit for you); 2 Kos of Sdkh 10/20mm and two battalions of Hummels. On D-Day the 21st Panzer was the only Panzer Division to engage the Allies on D-Day. KampfGruppe VonLuck nearly drove the Commonwealth Forces into the sea. It is said that Rommel himself supervised the action. I believe he was out of country at his wife's birthday party.
  

Well Sommarkatze; thats my take on what the PE faction is supposed to represent. I hope it was entertaining.

[Mattdamon07]

Panzer elite must represent them.

1. They have panzer greens
2. They have more camo then most units
3. In campaign them represent the SS panzer divisions defending Arnhem.
4. They have that scorched earth tatic which is kind of SS work to me
5. The upgrade group zeal sounds like the SS to me
6. The narroter for them sounds brutal
7. The pe are a very mobile faction like the SS divisions
8. They are given very unique vehicles Such as jag panthers

[GodlikeDennis]

I think they're just ad Hoc divisions formed to defend against Operation Market Garden since they didn't have time to mobilize properly. They're a collection of lots of different units.

1. Panzer Grens are any infantry working with Mechanized/Armoured divisions aren't they? Not necessarily SS
2. Camoed units could be anything but are likely more elite units like SS
3. In the campaign they aren't stated to be SS divisions. Kampfgruppe Lehr division is a collection of the units training in the Netherlands (Lehr = to learn).
4. Scorthed Earth has been used by armies throughout history. Has nothing to do with SS
5. Group zeal could be appropriately applied to any German unit due to their use of combined arms, communication and coordination.
6. The narrator is German and Germans do sound brutal. Especially the awful German accent he puts on :S
7. Mechanised infantry were in the Heer as well as SS divisions
8. They also have Hotchkisses and Marders, old style equipment. Lends further support to the fact they're a hodgepodge of different units that just happened to be in the Netherlands at the time.

[Mattdamon07]

No I think it was SS that had PG's

[Tico_1990]

Mattdamon07, Panzergrenadier is (losely) translated to: armoured/mechanised grenadiers. They are mechanised infantry, which is not an SS exclusive, both the Heer and the SS had panzergrenadier regiments. For more information on the subject (even though it is not a great source): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzergrenadiers

[Mattdamon07]

Just saying they were commen in the SS regiments.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

They werent commen in the SS

Panzer-Division had Panzergrenadiers. Like Tico already explained: They were trained to fight with armoured vehicles like tanks and half-tracks.. Panzergrenadiere were equipped with half-tracks and motorised weapons and smg to got as much firepower as possible.
The SS need some month longer to transform their "SS-Schützen" into "SS-Panzergrenadiere".
So Panzergrenadiere arent NO indicator for SS.

[tigerclawstyle]

This is off topic but the initial posts about the allegiance of the Wehrmacht, and Rommel intrigued me. This is a passage from one of my favorite books. The author is trying to summarize reasons he's thinks the German Army was so easily manipulated. Quoted from the book.

1) The army of 100,000 men to which we were entitled under the Treaty of Versailles was deliberately trained to be nonpolitical. As a result, the officer corps lacked perspective.

2)Hitlers initial successes (the elimination of unemployment and the Communist threat, as well as the repatriation of former German territories to the Greater German Reich) restored self-confidence to the German people and the growing Wehrmacht.

3) The young people who were called up for military service were recruited mainly from the Hitler Youth and other National Socialist organizations and were correspondingly motivated, if not fanaticized.

4) Most decisively, it seems to me: the oath of allegiance was the creed of the officer corps. Hitler knew this and exploited it shamelessly.

End quote. For those of you interested the book is called "Panzer Commander, the personal memoirs of Colonel Hans Von Luck", the youngest man to achieve that rank (in the German military at least) during WW2. Rommel was his teacher in War college, and served with his ghost division in the invasion of the lowlands and France. After being transferred to the Russian front and fighting there, he was again transferred back into Rommel's command in Africa (Rommel asked for him personally). If you want to read a good war memoir and learn more about Rommel from a man who actually served under him and knew him, then I highly recommend this book.

Sorry for getting off topic.

[Mattdamon07]

wow i will learn from my mistakes, but there is one thing i know is that Panzer gren adiers from the SS were usaully better such as 12thSSPanzerDivision< my fav divi, dispite war crimes