vietlord osteer suggestion

[vietlord]

Ostheer Army

Important: each built unit has a letter first: one building : you can buy « a » unit, two buildings  means « a » + »b » and so on … (here T0-HQ doesn't count)
Speed: except on roads, these vehicules are slowed by 0,8 considering the usual werhm, until xp2 see below
When no price is made, well it refers to old price

T0 -QG
_ pionner (upgrad mine-sweeper) ...sandbag-barbwire (no flamming)
_  Kommandant (up-stealth=> slow to move), with a second mate
he may command a near pak to slow a engine
he may improve the spead of pionner-work
he may slow an infanry unit (like PG's carabin)
_ (b) Medical-Kompanie-pack
_ (c ) Werkstatt-Kompanie-pack

T1 German casern
(a) 4 grenadier (like T2werm) 300 MP -(b)=5 (c )=6 (d)=7 !!! (slow rate creation speed)
(a) 3 -MG-42 team
(b)  1 sgt vet  (10 max per game)
(b) flamming team (2+2 flamming) 300 MP

T2 - Supply
   _ (a) lSdKfz 11 (tractor, upgrad 1 mg-34) medium speed but all-mud
   _ (a) L3/33 italian ( only front is light tank-shielded) <T-90lighter>
        (b) upgrad 20mmAT OR upgrad flamthrower
   _ (b) AT Boher 4.7 cm PaK 180 MP
  _  (b) SdKfz 7/1 flak light-wagon Wirbelwind-firpower 350MP 20 gas
   _ (c ) 88 mobile with tractor (must deploy/ repack)
   _ (c ) SdKfz 124 Wespe (arty-105 on panzer2body) 550 MP 50gas
   _ (d)  Nashorn : 400 MP 75gas

T3  foreign-Unity
 _  (a) italian  4  (upgrad trench-digger n' jump in) … auto-flee if 1 men left if no officer near
  _ (b)  finns stealth-ambush (light-sniping 25  upgrade/or: MP40) 6, (tank-grenade-ability) 300 MP
  _ (c ) Roumanian 6 - 200MP molotov ability
  _ (d) Ukranian-levies 8- 200MP can buy a panzershriek75 ammo
T4 : Panzer
_ Pz 2 L Sd. Kfz. 123 ou Luchs (canon 2cm et MG-34) good vs infantery 120 MP 30gas
_  two-Pz3  250 MP 60gas
_  pz4   
_ TIGER1 (2 max) (softer than COH-werhmacht) 700 MP 100gas

T5' weapon supplier
_ any unit may buy here one panzershreak for 90 ammo
_ any unit may buy here one MP-44 for 90 ammo
(this bulding speed the rate of cooldown-ammo)


_ Guderian
      This man had planned the battle-order so just one line
     
0-CP scout-car, <two place, good for Kommandant> 80 mp unarmed
2-CP stuka strike[free first time,150 ammo after],(stunt-zone stuH-effect-centerAT) noise but no red-smoke up with a gunner 50 ammo / up detection 50 MP
2-CP Panzerwerfer 42-   (upgrad smoke launcher)
2-CP Sd.Kfz. 232 early puma,  upgrad-detect(20 ammo)   
2 CP Me-109 land-straff (one sturmovic may be shot if on zone) 100 ammo, lighter than US but better vs light vehicule
4-CP Elefant !! 700 MP, workers as marder3 but twice as powerful   
   
_ Manstein
left-defend!
   _ 1 CP ability to dig a trench with pionneers- every infantry may cloak it's trench with camo (and then no shooting of course) … pionner car also put mine luft-style for 80 ammo and time
   _  2 CP pak40 steath ability … may be put behind tractor for move 300 MP
   _  3 CP  Karl-600mm extra heavy mortar shot 350 ammo : except QG, 1 shot  means:1 construct down    (red smoke alerte: 6 trails ! Time to come)
---------------------
right-reinforcement
   _ 3 CP Support-A SdKfz 6 halftrack: has been provided to our comrades. This extremely large halftrack can fit 15 people or 3 squads.  insideMG(3) + mortar(3) +grenadier(4) 700 MP 10gas
   _ 2 CP for the father land = defensive bonus
   _ 3 CP Panther  600 MP 110 fuel


_Hausser (waffen-elite)
      Under the pressure, german tried  desesperate weager
left-waffen
   _3 CP waffen-elite troup (4 MP-44) elite armor– can't flee [panzerfaust 35 ammo]
upgrad lvl XP fot 10 MP    450 MP (cross hold carac)
            _ 1CP  they gain: fanatism-motivation 5 ammo

center-fury
   _  1 CP fury (your unit does rhe blitz-assaut-nades)
   _  2 CP unit who panzerfaust shoot-twice-Pfaust (still 35 ammo)
right dirty
---------------------
   _ 3 CP 3 Werwolf-partisan cloak (demo-charge, 50 ammo; mining 25) comes like luft-fallsh  250 light-carac, fast
   _ 2 CP Knife-fight (instant kill at contact(snip-dammage), but a gap-time no move for the kill)
(SGT can't go in the waffen, since waffen buy their own training-experience)

Experience:
the trained XP1 Sgt is attached in a german infantry pack from QG and capitalize XP (like a Urss col with his mates, not independant as brit-chiefs
xp1 means : more precise unit,
xp2 means: a moving unit takes less damage
xp3 means: lvl 2 armor on germans

(Sgt Xp1 may be put in panzers too, but others still gain XP)
vehicule xp1: aim-improoved too, take care !
vehicule xp2: speed increased to usual speed thanks to ostkretten (larger for mud)
vehicule xp3: life increased


Replace men in a infantry unit
 the HQ is usually slow for that, but by paying 10 mp per man, up to 10 soldiers can be there instantly (usual cost still there) … reinforcement have to come from the fatherland, this must be prepared

Werkstatt-Kompanie– véhicule-reparator-camp can be deployed once anywhere friendly by the tractor
the repair can be accerated with ammo
(it is large and strong as the russian advance camp)
The tractor can also bring dead-tanks there for extracting ammo
there can be bought shurtzen on panzers

Medical-Kompanie infantery healer-camp can be deployed once anywhere friendly by the tractor
the healing can be accerated with ammo

Population limit:
75% of maximum is german
25% of maximum is foreign

Few explanations:
Osteer had offensive first, thanks to blitzkrieg strategy, but needed trained officers, gas to strike and foreign   allies to hold their lines.
Panzerdivisionnen were great but had to repair between assaults and lost many trained men

second, they wanted to defend lines ambushed and improoved technology to have supremacy, but this costed so much

Last, they threw what they had: surviving panzers and waffen-elite infantry who somhow managed ....

All comments are welcome and -of course- some ideas are not mine, the aim is to give a ostheer-concept

[Paciat]

Youre Tier system looks too much like soviet and there are too many units.

If you have a Luchs you dont need a SdKfz 7/1.
If you have a mobile 88 you dont need a Nashorn and pak40. (doctrinal)
If you have Italians you dont need Romanians and Ukraines. (dont know how to spell that)

There is no non dontrinal anti sniper vechicle. (kubelwagen, scout car or a motrobike)
There is no early artillery. (mortar)
UK cant fight trenches so Ostheer cant have them.
Karl-600mm wont be included, Im allmost sure of that.
Knife-fight - they will instant kill commandos becouse commandos dont know knife technology.
"Elefant ... as marder3 but twice as powerful" no comment.

These are things that I most disliked. If you fix these Ill be happy to criticize more. 

[vietlord]

thks paciat for your  post... i ll first try to debate ... could you tell me also what you liked ?

1_The Luchs is a possible first vehicule light but still panzer, the 7/1 is a lorry really weak like katioushka against dammage, but good behind your tanks against infantry and … planes (acting like the US T3-maxxon)
2_ the ostheer must have some AT choice as their opponents russian have … _The 88 takes a large time to deploy and time too to be ready to move, and must have a tractor, not the  . The 88 is also still expensive. The pak-stealth-able, is doctrinal, may move by it's own but can gain speed-move with the tractor .
3_ italians came first, should defend positions like R and U, but these are more numerous with time coming but still cheap, R have molotov, U may have a p-shreak and, maybe have p-faust ? These 3 foreign unit guys should have different caracs  for balance and defend points as russian also have variety (conscript-strelsky-guard...), while german are here for offensive

4_ there is no special unit vs sniper , deliberatly … use a Luchs to go near or a numerous unit … the officer can slow the sniper fleeing … but the finn unit seems good to work as the brit recon-team … moreover versus russia, sniper wasn't the best option
5_ no early mortar, right … it will slow the wanted blitzkrieg …  take Manstein-supply, ask stuka, or steal one … in my proposal that's deliberate to give a move and offesive style
6_ you're right … so pionneer prepare a once-camo square zone, a unit goes to activate it … no bonus like a trench, just a suprise, with maybe some medium cover
=> Stalingrad - Part 8
(brit-officer and grenade-tommy could find them and kill,  if ostheer don't move they're dead  )

7_ «my » Karl isn't on play, it is just a doctrinal-strike as the V1 is … more expensive and more powerful …
8_ the close-kill is here for only« werwolf » and waffen to punish mass russia … so ok it shouldn't do enough dammage to once kill a tommy … I thought commandos had smoke to vanish, or grenade and fire-power while backing
9_ the one elefant has the jagdpanther style: heavy powerful and tank hunter vs IS-2 (but should avoid first line

[Paciat]

Some units are good - 7/1 quad halftrack (not a lorry), flametrowers for grenadieres, 47mm AT gun, Panzerwerfer 42, PzIII.
I also like: "pionneer prepare a once-camo square zone" ability. Building camo. Thats a great idea. Best idea Iv seen for 2 weeks. Im adding it in the Ability suggestion thread and in my concept.


But theres more I dont like. 

You have 3 foreign units + grenadieres. Thats too much. Sure Wermacht and Soviets have 3 types of infantry (not 4) but US and PE have only 1 type (non doctrinal). Also 47mm AT gun was not build in Germany so it should be build in T-3.

"no early mortar, right … it will slow the wanted blitzkrieg" Does PE mortar halftrack slow the blitzkrieg?
Dosnt youre 47mm and 88mm guns slow the blitzkrieg?
Also Ostheer (like Soviets) wont be able to re-man heavy weapons so I wont be able to "steal one".

Commandos have smoke to get in close (not run away) to the enemy and then kill them with STENs. They (commandos) have a knife on their units badge becouse they should be the best and most expensive "close-killers".

Now doctrines.
Why are you givigng luftwaffe usage to Guderian? Werwolf-partisan cloak for Panzer leader Hausser? Why? I think general Student (creator of fallschirmjaegers) should have some infantry+luftwaffe abilities.

Doctrines should have abilities are usefull in certain situations. A usually defensive, offensive and raid doctrine. (Wehrmach has no raid doctrine, UK has no offensive)

Guderian doctrine is most offensive but the slow Elephant dosnt fit the lightning strike concept. Also stuka strike and Me-109? German Luftwaffe wasnt that powerfull to have abilities like US army. (strafing and bombing runs)

Manstein is the worst doctrine. 1st ability is for pioneers 2nd a AT gun, 3rd for arti, 4th light armor, 5th for infntry, 6th for heavy armor.
Also there shouldnt be a bombard ability stronger than V-1. With it you could use e very cheap armored car or a fast tank go to enemy base, drop a Karl shell (that destroyes his HQ) if and you didnt won the game allready, just repeat this move 5 minutes later.

Hausser as Ive said before was a Panzer Leader. (in Waffen-SS) Blitz doctrine (stormtroopers+Tiger I) or whole PE fraction fits him better than clocked knife fighting.
Dont know how devs feel about him but he spend in prison only 2 years so he wasnt responsible for war crimes.

[vietlord]

thanks paciat for helping me
-well foreign take 25% or the pop so it needs some versality (and finns were good) so 20%: just finns and Romanians with molotov and shriek-ability
(a)=3 (b)=4 (c )=5 (d)=6
-"Also 47mm AT gun was not build in Germany so it should be build in T-3" yes you're right and L3/33 italian too

-guderian was a panzer-specialist but luft completed so much and was active in offensive time, skuka is better for hit. elefant is THE mobile response for heavy tanks, but it might get out... what else ? just nashorn ? and 88 were first the only solution for T-34
-i don't want to put the PE-mortar, so doctrine-unit looks like a new try OR Panzerwerfer-solution
-Manstein was -I belive- some who had to combine everything he had to stay competitive with ostheer ...
- you're right about paul-hausser, he's more about panzer-like, he was waffen-leader but no scandalous-nazi, and last line so I kept the name, i'll change him but who ? I like the fact he were east and west
-the fallsh were so few (PE ok, ostheer no)
- I wrote that Karl-600 would brake everything Except HQ... and the ammo-price is high (sturmovik looks free and worse on the map)
-werwolf are low caracs on shooting so no match for commandos and "my" waffen-step soldiers are so expensive as you buy their XP, each !

_Hausser(waffen-elite)
left-wafen
      Under the pressure, german tried  desesperate weager
left-waffen
   _ 4 CP waffen-elite troup (4 MP-44) elite armor– can't flee [panzerfaust 35 ammo]
upgrad lvl XP fot 10 MP    600 MP (cross hold carac)
    _  2 CP unit who panzerfaust shoot-twice-Pfaust (still 35 ammo)

center-Panzer
   _ 2 CP: tank reload quicker, time -0.2
   _ 3 CP: ONE unique pz4 xp3 (and more life) comes  with Generaloberst Hausser  , bonus move and resistance on all near germans

right dirty
---------------------
   _ 3 CP 3 Werwolf-partisan cloak (demo-charge, 50 ammo; mining 25) comes like luft-fallsh  250 light-carac, fast
   _ 2 CP Knife-fight for waffen and werwolf (instant kill at contact(near-snip-dammage), but a gap-time no move for the kill)

(SGT can't go in the waffen nor werwolf, since waffen buy their own training-experience)

[vietlord]

i improve my try by a few good ideas (well comment that  i'm readyyyyyyyyy to payyyyy to be criticiiiiiiiiised  )

HQ, isn't a building but a railroad station, being increase larger from T0 to T4,
you buy there zero-to one- T0-unit
you buy there zero-to one- T1-unit
you buy there zero-to one- T2-unit
you buy there zero-to one- T3-unit ...you validate
=> and a train enters from of-map in front of the station and  delivers the bought command from Germany

_ maybe pionners could then extend the railroad furthermore to deliver out or the base  ... with a upgrade, the train would take a front-flakvierling ... of course the railroad can be gunned and broken ... or repaired ...

_ pocketed by strength :another new idea, doctrinal or T0 expensive upgrad good for blitzkrieg: opponents on cut-territory, have malus

_ captured :last idea : unit stunt being touch ... and circled by twice german including a panzer,  may be captured with an ability,and walk back hands up,  if they aren't stop  until hq (or the train) that gives manpower (15 per man ?) as brit + us can flee, they ll be less affected than red army (remember PE campaign, brit commando were caught)

[neosdark]

Right Viet, lets make this simple and fast.

Your design is too... Soviet-ish with a few mixes of Brits and then some Wehr in there. Now not neccerilly a bad thing but the Soviet-ish system has to go. Think of a new unit-deployment structure or just use the basic one but find a new building structure.

Now the Knife-Fight is (at the moment) near immpossible to animate so may i suggest instead giving them a shotgun of some sort as a substitute. Makes life easier for the designers (all they have to do in that case is make the Stuart shrapnel shot smaller).

The Werwolf insurgency group/partisans were mainly a bunch of propaganda designed by Goebbels. They existed on paper but really didn't do much. Perhaps an SS counter insurgency group as a substitute.

The Sgt. system needs to be canned too. Extremly British. Its almost the exact same thing.

So its really a huge conglomerate of all exsisting systems. I do like the way the doctrines are organized though. Oh and thanks for commenting on my design my friend.

[vietlord]

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werwolf  to see about these desesperate weager

once a unit takes a sgt it means +1 man in that unit and +1 xp lvl ... but he'll earn other xp by fighting like americans

knife fight doesn't seem so hard ... an arm move and a shot no range ? the man would take also a free shot before from the opponent to figure the defense

i m trying to think about the railroad station, give me advice

[neosdark]

Okay my friend Wikipedia isn't always right. I checked 2 wikis on Werwolf's activities so please don't tell me that they had any true action other then another propaganda.

Now on the Train Station- I love the idea. Its brilliant and does reflect the Ostheers movement stratagies. My questions is are you considering the fact that on the Eastern Front the Ostheer had to exchange the Russian tracks for German ones. This caused transport to be slow so i suggest having almost all your units come in slow until tier 2.5 where u can purchase an upgrade that lets u deploy troops x2.0 faster due to the track conversions. It would be realistic.

Now thank you for explaining your officer, its an interesting idea. My worry is that it will only be for some units. So if u have all 10 SGTs attached to units all new units won't have Veterancy. That's a little unnerving.  The reason the British system doesn't work to well (at least thats what i find) is because Captains and Leftenants are easy to kill. But they affect all units in a radius. U have to think about that.

Perhaps a late game upgrade that allows you to deploy more SGTs, but I wonder, can u detach the SGt. from a squad or is it a permanent attachment. That might determine a lot.

If u don't think its hard to animate a knife fight tell that to the Pacific Thunder modders..........   

[vietlord]

_ i know werwolves were "light" but a cloak unit mining, but weak in usual front fight fits me, it also has a good name that seems good. ( maybe a 0-1 unit then ?)
_ Train Station, your different speeds fits me, i'll integer it
_ you're not oblige to give a sgt+ to units, just forget to waste them, but without, unit can only go xp 1 or 2 by fighting, no radius effect like brit of course
_well, the knife fight would be hard so just a one-hit knife ? (remember sardaukar boss in Dune2)

[Pauly3]

xD Parciat
You said Hauser wasnt responsible for warcrimes because he spent only two years in prison?
I let you in on a little secret: Some nazi war criminals were never convicted cause they somewhat escaped or pledged for not guilty.
I like your conzept vietlord
especially the camo nets!!