Supply Yard-like Upgrade for Soviets

[Chancellor]

Since GoW seems to be a medicore ability at best, I suggest switching it with Katyshas.

I like it.

I actually think the SU blob can be larger and angrier than US blobs already.

I liked the idea of Soviet supply upgrade before, but now SU has Command Squad vet witch works like Wehrmacht global vet. They shouldnt have both supply center upgrade and global vet.
As for a muni upkeep reduction upgrade... just build an outposton a muni point.

As mentioned, if this supply yard idea were to be implemented, I recommended further lowering the global and individual vet bonuses in order to compensate.

[Maple]

Petroleum Refinery - Reduces munitions upkeep of vehicles by 25% (50 mun, 50 fuel)
Expanded Petroleum Refinery - Further reduces munitions upkeep by 10% (of base)(75 mun, 50 fuel)

Reduce Command Squad bonus to 5% -  5% - 10% = 20%

Guards unsupressable at Vet 2

Reduce outpost buildbox!! Can't build on some maps

[TheVolskinator]

I play EF in cheatmod, simply waiting it out untill the Ostheer is implimented and the balance kinks are ironed out. So, from playing in cheatmod: The Command Squad's bonuses are not the be all and end all of the faction. Triple Off Vet CS don't readily affect Guards/Stekly/Riflemen/Volks etc (I've tested the effects of the aura with every individual infantry unit in every faction, off vet doesnt seem to do much more than reduce cooldowns and offer mediocre accuracy increases, def vet seems to reduce received accuracy (barely) and offer ~.10 received damage at vet3. I don't know the stats so it's just a guestimation). Snipers: 'Damn OP' doesnt cut it. Vasily and Ivan need a health nerf. When in cover, the spotter seems to get some sort of Falshirmjager-like bonus, the little bastard acts as a psudo sniper in his own right. And yeah, the spotter get's autotargeted; he's higher in the target tables than even the ami/wehr snipers when facing eachother/ami vs ami/wehr vs whr. He even takes more fire than a jeep (I beleeive). 90-96 (53 HP/man) should do nicely. And for petes sake, the Mosin Nagant is statistically OP. Its a garand+grenadier k98k. Make a version for the ingenery, conscripts, and ove for strekly. Guards--they have 6 G43s, in essance. 1x DP-28, 2x SVT40, 3x Mosin and an upgrade (in-field, in likeness to a flamer/mp40 etc) for two more?

[Paciat]

I play EF in cheatmod, simply waiting it out untill the Ostheer is implimented and the balance kinks are ironed out. So, from playing in cheatmod: The Command Squad's bonuses are not the be all and end all of the faction. Triple Off Vet CS don't readily affect Guards/Stekly/Riflemen/Volks etc (I've tested the effects of the aura with every individual infantry unit in every faction, off vet doesnt seem to do much more than reduce cooldowns and offer mediocre accuracy increases, def vet seems to reduce received accuracy (barely) and offer ~.10 received damage at vet3. I don't know the stats so it's just a guestimation). Snipers: 'Damn OP' doesnt cut it. Vasily and Ivan need a health nerf. When in cover, the spotter seems to get some sort of Falshirmjager-like bonus, the little bastard acts as a psudo sniper in his own right. And yeah, the spotter get's autotargeted; he's higher in the target tables than even the ami/wehr snipers when facing eachother/ami vs ami/wehr vs whr. He even takes more fire than a jeep (I beleeive). 90-96 (53 HP/man) should do nicely. And for petes sake, the Mosin Nagant is statistically OP. Its a garand+grenadier k98k. Make a version for the ingenery, conscripts, and ove for strekly. Guards--they have 6 G43s, in essance. 1x DP-28, 2x SVT40, 3x Mosin and an upgrade (in-field, in likeness to a flamer/mp40 etc) for two more?

There are 4 types of Mosins.
Squad     members x dmg  acc long/medium/short
Constript         4x10   0.8/0.25/0.2
Upgraded con.  7x7     0.8/0.25/0.2
Strelky            7x12   0.75/0.55/0.5
Spotter           1x15   0.9/0.66/0.42

As you can see Constripts are really weak a long range combat but Strelky are better at long range and do more dmg than Grens and US Rifles. Their squad HP is only a little lower than other infantry.
(US - 330, Volks - 325, Grens - 320, Strelky -315).
I never understood why spotter and tank hunters got so powerfull rifles nor why is Mosin more accurate than Gren k98. Grens dont get acc bonuses from vet so their base acc should be the highest ingame.

[GodlikeDennis]

Command squad vet gives +10% damage or -10% received damage I believe. This equates to upping a mosin nagant to 13.2/14.5/16 damage from 12 or decreasing incoming damage from gren K98s from 15 to 13.5/12.2/10.9. Comparing the defensive bonus to gren vet, grens reduce the damage of mosins from 12 to:
vet1   12   no defensive change
vet2   9.6   elite armour effect (0.8 received dmg, also 0.75 received acc - not factored)
vet3   7.7   gren +30% health = 0.8 received damage

According to 1.30 patchnotes, strelky vet gives:
 - Veterancy 1:Armour changed to Airborne (0.75 received dmg, 0.75 received acc while moving - not factored)
 - Veterancy 2:1.2 accuracy modifier
 - Veterancy 3:1.2 Damage modifier
vet requirements: 6/12/18

So only a vet 1 strelky squad with vet 3 def command squad will take 5.8 damage from grens, down from 15. While vet 3 grens only reduce the damage of strelky to 7.7 from 12. *Strelky only need to kill 3 grens/weapons crew members or 6 volks/pios to get vet 1.

If offensive vet is obtained, strelky 13.2/14.5/16dmg is mitigated to 10.6/11.6/12.8 and 8.4/9.3/10.2dmg by gren vet 2 and 3, while grens are mitigated to 11.3dmg by strelky vet 1.

Comparing without the command squad:
Accuracy table
K98_elite vs Strelky (strelky airborne armour change noted in brackets *only while moving)
L              0.45 (0.34)
M             0.65 (0.49)
S             0.85 (0.64)

Mosin_nagant vs Grens (vet 2 strelky (1.2acc) in brackets)
Strelky            vs infantry armour      vs elite armour (vet2 grens)
L                    0.5 (0.6)                  0.38 (0.45)
M                   0.55 (0.66)               0.41 (0.5)
S                   0.75 (0.9)                 0.56 (0.68)

Damage table
K98_elite vs infantry armour             15
vs airborne armour (vet1 strelky)      11.3

Mosin_nagant vs grens (vet3 strelky 1.2dmg in brackets)
vs vet0/1 infantry armour                12 (14.4)
vs vet2 elite armour                       9.6 (11.5)
vs vet3 health bonus                      7.7 (9.2)

Vet 2 and 3 grens cost the wehr player 400MP (+100 for KKC) 80FU and 700MP (+100 for KKC) 150FU. Whereas vet 3 command squads take 7/14/32 xp to vet and strelky take 6/12/18. A volk/pio is worth 1xp and grens/weapon crews are worth 2xp. Also note that command squads get the vet from units they kill with their arty callin they get at vet1. Wehr vet is permanent once researched whereas Soviet vet is lost with the unit, though the command squad vet is global.

All this is assuming the patchnotes are correct of course, since I can't actually find vet bonuses in corsix. By this analysis though, the problem clearly lies in Strelky vet 1 airborne armour. It allows comparable damage mitigation to elite armour and is also better on the move, leading to the prevalence of choosing PPShs over DP-28s. The command squad vet stacked with this armour leads to further problems. Also, the bonus from the command squad gives too much, seeing as a vet 3 offensive aura is more powerful than vet 3 grens (not taking into account accuracy) on top of the strelky vet that is available.

[tpcoughlin]

Interesting as the discussion is, snipers rifles, and doctrinal trees seem to be a bit off topic guys!

Supply yard building or supply yard upgrade; that is the question.

The v601 mp maintenance costs pose a real burden for tech development/ OB deployable unit quantities, for the Soviets on low-cap mp maps. The Cottbus map is a perfect example. Eight low mp points on the map; Hold six of them, outpost five of these. Field an ambulance,three Katushkya's, one support unit, one or two tanks. You will find you are receiving 0 - 5 mps per minute. At the same time withn one fuel point outosted I've seen a fuel pool of over 2000 FP! Heaven help you if you haven't placed all your mines and made all the mp related tech upgrades prior to this because you will not be getting any more unless you kamikazi your OB; in which case good luck holding on to even 3 MPs.  AI players and non-Soviet Human players meanwhile can have 3 - 4 Tanks/ATGs, 2 ACs, 3 - 4 support units before they reach the pop cap limits.  In spite of this lo-cap munitions maps are fun to play.

The armory T5, has two available slots and the building roster has the T3 slot available. Personally I would like to see a 76.2 mm ATG in the armory and a BT series AC, (although ACs should probably go to T4).

The T3 building slot is probably this best approach. The two tiered US style supply yard could be imported easily enough. It would be worth it even without the veterancy buffs. Upgrades could include two or three unlocking steps and a series of one shot applications trading off population/munitions/fuel, directly or as done in the Blitzkrieg Doctrine production blitz. Suggested titles include "The heroic struggle of the Proletariat  to resupply Leningrad over the ice of Lake Ladoga" "Urals industrial relocation completed" "Lend Lease trucks carry munitions to the front". The slots are there and the coding would mostly duplicate existing capability.

Rejoining the off topic discussion: the Sharpshooter Squad is the most fun of all the CoH TO&E. The impact of multiple snipers could be nerfed by (a).  Increasing the base maintenance munitions cost/tick. (b). Logarhthymically increasing the base maintenance munitions cost/tick for each additional squad after the first.

Slightly off topic: Soviet outposts are excellent but why a one unit garrison and a ten pop cap?

[IJoe]

+1^^ I like the upkeep cost' reduction ideas, and the sharpshooters' logarithmic (=progressive) upkeep increase.

[TheVolskinator]

I love how EF makes you feel like a complete idiot and a jackass--and yet you can't stop writing down all the statistics you just learned  lawl, at least someone paid attention to what I posted. Again; I run off of what goes on in-game, not the nitty-gritty statistics themselves.

[RedGuard]

+1 I like the idea because after all it was the soviet industrial war machine/huge manpower reserves that gave the soviets their overwhelming advantage

they had the most infantry men and produced the most tanks, for fractions of the cost of competing militarys! with even more of an emphasis on this than the US so it makes perfect sense to me and a lot of intelligent others