[2.1.0.1] Snipers: Not an adequate fix

[Blackbishop]

I agree, there should be ways to instagib the sniper team just as the regular sniper would, in example being strafed or hitting a mine... however axis factions do not use strafe. We can find a way to fine tune them until we get them in a proper state IMO.

@JuhwannX
I guess I can try to stick them closer when moving .

[Cranialwizard]

I'll try to keep the things simple;

1- There's no 100% equal and mirrored units in COH, this is the design and which makes the game interesting.
2- Vcoh Snipers have the most "equal" look but in fact they are not- both USA and Wehr snipers have different responses and qualities acc to their vet except Health Points.
3- That's why I support 2 man SU sniper team because of the 1st reason.

however;

If the "Cause of Death" differs for this unit - which is at the moment -then it's a major problem. Reinforcing the sniper team on the field is a game breaker. period. A sniper in death danger retreats and if survives, gets the chance to go on doing his job, but 2 man sniper team looses a man by mine or strafe or bike hit- whatever, reinfs and keeps shooting, then this is a serious "advantage" and very clear indicator of "imbalance".

Especially for PE, you may loose your AC to a mine or Krak nade while trying to chase and kill the team but kill only 1 man, and tatam! SU sniper team still alive. Same thing can happen for PGs, you may loose your squad while chasing, but at the end you loose your valuable squad by taking this risk because of the actual design and at the end SU is rewarded. It loads "more risk" to the opposite team than the normal and acceptable risk factor. That also hurts the "exchangeable loss" mechanics. You kila sniper but loose an AC, that's ok. You loose a Luchs but team survives by one man. It's not ok.

It's a clear and visible fact and you don't need 10 replays to "prove it".

That's a balance problem.

^ This, I love how the 2 man sniper is unique but if the cause of death is not by sniper and a ridiculous effort is made to kill said unit but you only manage to nab one man then we have an issue on our hands. One will go down before the other because there is probably one guy closer to the guns that are blazing at him and by the time the retreat button is hit they can run away.

This would be as if the ZIS-2 could pack up and leave with 1 guy left.

I agree, there should be ways to instagib the sniper team just as the regular sniper would, in example being strafed or hitting a mine... however axis factions do not use strafe. We can find a way to fine tune them until we get them in a proper state IMO.

@JuhwannX
I guess I can try to stick them closer when moving .

Or, you could just have them instagib when one of them goes down. Perhaps as a bonus to this fact you leave the health as is.

Sticking them closer together will help but doesn't solve the problem. It's a band-aid for the actual issue. (It's happened before)

[I_am_a_Spoon]

"But COH2 did it! And Modern Combat Mod did it!"

And look at the balance of Company of Hereos 2 and the Modern Combat mod. It's an absolute mess.

You should elaborate.

In more detail, the balance of the modern combat mod is less noticeable because the existing sniper mechanics of the game had been changed when the vCoh factions were in their right state removed.

I don't understand this part at all.

To those whom still support the fallacy of a balanced, 2 man sniper squad that can be reinforced, and you know who you are: It will never, ever work with Company of Heroes unless a dynamic change is made to the mod.

I think you're wrong.

IMO sniper teams can work, but are fairest when they exist as an optional upgrade for a 1-man sniper unit. With this system in place, you preserve the initial sniper duel mechanic but provide a means of investing in the sniper's survivability, especially late-game.

As long as countersnipes are capable of neutralising the sniper team (removing its sniper functionality so that it can't immediately kill the countersniper) then what you have is an entirely legitimate gameplay element that isn't nearly as impossible as you're implying.

For example, in Modern Combat a successful countersnipe always kills the sniper and spares the spotter (equipped only with an assault rifle). Treating the sniper team like a support crew and killing them both when countersniped is another option, but a clumsier one I think.

[JuhwannX]

In the next patch the sniper team will be working like a 2 man weapon team of things like mortars and AT guns. So when 1 dies the other does as well. As well as the health getting a nerf to 80hp. And a counter snipe will outright kill the team.

[Dann88]

Good choice, but this thing should have been done without such number of posts

[Riggsman]

In the next patch the sniper team will be working like a 2 man weapon team of things like mortars and AT guns. So when 1 dies the other does as well. As well as the health getting a nerf to 80hp. And a counter snipe will outright kill the team.

You mean; you loose 2 men squad even if the spotter dies? Well, I've already mentioned that problem but I reconsider the situation of 2 men sniper squad; if the sniper is automatically killed if the spotter dies will make 2 men squad redundant. The beauty of COH is non-mirrored units, OST sniper has longer range, SU sniper has 2 men. Pros-cons are different and that makes a fun game. Having 2 men sniper team just because of aesthetic reasons don;t serve anything to game mechanics.

If you make 2 men sniper team like a support crew then the cost, effect and purpose will be ground zero for this unit.

I think the biggest problem of sniper spam is that you have both Conscripts and Snipers at the same time. Cons are meat shield for snipers and Landsers while you are picking theirs or waiting a counter snipe. That sounds nasty and not fair in my book.

[Hendrik 'DarcReaver' S.]

Marksmen is ike the Wehr sniper in terms of stats except that he has worse rate of fire and he got the burst fire after upgrading it. About the Soviet sniper: it was never the point of putting the 2men sniper team in for gameplay reasons. It was only for aesthetic reasons.

[Riggsman]

Are you sure it doesn't effect game play? I am just curious;

1- More men means more targets to shoot, 1 men sniper conceals himself better than 2 men.

2- What about the missing shots? You may miss 1 men but 2 men gives more chance or not?

3- Second men may be revealed more easily then one man; for example if medics are near carrying the wounded. Medic passes near the spotter not the sniper and bam! revealed.

4- More men also gives bigger chance for crash because of the space they use. Crash spotter, both dead.

5- Let's say you spam 3-4 snipers, that means 6-8 men and you strafed them. Afaik strafe gives more damage if more men inside the kill zone.

I don't know the numbers, figures and stats, just asking.

[Magyar]

I am not balance expert, but I find myself leaning towards CranialWizard's position.

As far as I understand, one of the few remaining major balance issues in vCoH faction matchups is sniper massing. Essentially, the units that were designed to counter snipers cannot do so effectively enough, which leaves snipers as actually the best counters to other snipers. This leads to ridiculous sniper massing for the purposes of counter sniping, which, in my opinion, is rather lame. Shouldn't the game's late game revolve around more than just four snipers on both sides supporting heavy vehicles, trying to pick off the enemy's snipers?

I believe the major problem with the sniper is its cloak ability that functions irrespective of whether the sniper is in cover. Since EF does not touch the regular game's balance, modifying that is out of the question. However, the team does have control over the Soviets, and so the team should make an effort to not encourage this lame, if effective, strategy.

So let's be realistic, if the sniper team is more durable than a regular sniper and retrain then that is merely accentuating the problem: nothing effectively counters snipers except snipers, and that becomes more so in the case of the Soviets.

I don't have thousands of 1v1s under my belt, I admit, but I do believe that either the sniper team should be merely aesthetic and treated like a regular sniper, turned into a regular sniper, or it can remain more durable, but remove its cloak ability that functions without cover.