Company of Heroes: Eastern Front

Author Topic: What if...  (Read 18753 times)

Offline neosdark

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Re: What if...
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2012, 03:45:54 AM »
IMO: Hitler's greatest ally in winning Germany was himself, and his greatest enemy when losing Germany was himself

I dare say QFT

Offline Otto Halfhand

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Re: What if...
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2012, 09:12:18 PM »
@ Dreamerbg: Your analysis of Soviet and Amis production philosophy is not bad but I don't think it holds water for the Germans. The Pz III chassis, (Stug) and the Pz Iv chassis were far and away the most produced and had the largest kill rates of all weapons in the Heer. The Germans early on had a misconception regarding the effectiveness of their light tanks and medium tanks. Although the Pz VI was in development quite early Germany sold the equipment to produce Cast Cuervilinear Armor to the Soviets in 1938. This came back to haunt them when the Sovs used this equipment to producew the IS2 and IS3 series of tanks. The Germans just didn't think this level of tecnology would be required in this war!
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Offline TheVolskinator

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Re: What if...
« Reply #47 on: December 03, 2012, 07:26:58 AM »
Keep in mind, the German war machine was tooled for a 5 month war. Then Hitler decided, hell ,why not invade Russia. It's not like dozens of military armies that vastly overpowered the Russians and then froze to death have anything to teach me. In fact, let me delay a bit while I fap and try to get off on England after I take over France and the low countries.

The 'cheap' T34 far outclassed anything the Germans had when they first encountered it. Only their better coordination and use of their armor permitted them to beat the T34. Even in France, the Char B1 bis and Valentine/Matilda were nigh invulnerable to anything the Germans had,  it was their poor use that got them killed. The only thing the Germans had that could stand a remote chance vs. Allied armor was an 88 screen, and only Erwin Rommel made sense to employ in any significant capacity, and even then, only towards the end of the battle.

Germany was prepared for a fast war of sweeping success, basically, "5 PG -> T2 -> 2+ IHTs -> baserush and fuck teching" was their gameplan. It was Hermann Göring's utter incompitence with the Luftwaffe, and Hitler's singleminded obsession with Stalingrad that (IMHO) ultimately doomed the German war machine--disregard "Oh, if they'd just produced the Pz IV, they'd be fine". The Russians still would have outperformed them in every production capacity, and the Pz IV production lines would be an even bigger target--when they would get put out of action via Anglo-American bombing raids, the entire Germand armored output (instead of part of it) would be destroyed.
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Offline Otto Halfhand

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Re: What if...
« Reply #48 on: December 03, 2012, 09:32:34 AM »
Hey Volks!

Your analysis is pretty good. Germany was banking on a lightning war. The Nazi's sold the equipment and technology to build IS tanks to USSR in 1938. They didn't think they would need them. -On the other hand the Tiger was planned for quite early. Goering was a clown and Hitler was obsessed with micromanagement which certainly played havoc with the military planning and execution. His Stand or Die orders at Stalingrad were repeated many times. In particular at El Alamein and in Tunisia his obsession cost the Heer the services of Panzer Army Afrika. If these troops had been allowed to retreat then evacuate to Sicily. This would have delayed Allied Operations in Sicily and Italy and made the Italian Theater much more costly then it was. It was bloody enough anyway. Without airbases in Italy the Amis air assault on Oil production would have been much less effective. By Summer of 1944 Patton remarked on the use of horse drawn artillery in France.

Hitlers's interference with Guderian's decision to focus on anti-tank production in late 1941 when Guderian was Panzer Inspector General was questionable to say the least. Similarly the pursuit of Super Heavy tanks must be viewed as a waste of resources. However German AFV production increased every month up until late winter of 1944-5. The Allied bombing campaigns did not prevent that.

The Air onslaught did however cripple the aircraft industry. Here again one wonders what the effects on aircraft production might have been without the resources devoted to oddities like ME 463. Goerings's decision to employ the ME 263 as a bomber  must also be viewed as contributing to the problem This aircraft could have been employed perhaps 18 months earlier as CAP and might have seriously hampered the Allied air effort. In the long run the loss of German fighter pilots led to the success of the air campaign. Of approximately 6000 fighter pilots in the Luftwaffe only a couple hundred survived the war.

Your analysis of Soviet production is good but does not consider one salient issue. Hitler did not plan for Amis intervention. He did everything he could to prevent the Japanese from provoking the USA into war. Must of been interesting to see his reaction on December 7 1941!  :P Amis and British lend-Lease efforts allowed the Soviets the opportunity to concentrate their production on AFVs. The trucks and aircraft provided relieved the Soviets of the need for multiple production lines. The P39 and AirCobra had their greatest successes when flown by Soviet pilots. IIRC 4 of the top 10 Soviet Aces flew these planes. They were used as CAP not Ground Attack incidentally.

Another factor contributing to Allied success was their premere supremacy in the field of code breaking. Time and again both Japanese and German efforts were thwarted by Anglo Allied prior Intel. Thanks to their Polish Allies the Brits obtained the German naval code in 1936. They knew the sailing dates and virtually every communique of the Kriegsmarine throughout the war. The Soviets were very successful with their espionage efforts as well but they apparently concentrated on obtaining information about the USA. Stalin knew about the bomb before President Truman did.

In the long run I think Germany's Russian Adventure was doomed to failure. The strength of the Communist System, (compared to the Tsarist system), wouldn't have been toppled as in 1917. Without the prospect of a negotiated settlement I don't think Hitler could have prevailed against the strength and tenacity of the Soviet peoples on their home turf.
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Offline Wekwekboris

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Re: What if...
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2012, 04:48:18 PM »
For all the German technological advances, chances are: They were still screwed :P

Germans pimped their already pimped out rides. Russians were like: Germans are pimping their stuff again........USE LARGER GUNS!!!!! (BL-10 152mm anyone? *cough*) TIME TO UNPIMP HIS RIDE!!!!!!!!! So that is why they were quite screwed.

Offline Wekwekboris

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Re: What if...
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2012, 04:53:16 PM »
Well Im pretty sure there are better ways to maintian population than through machine guns  :P

Nukes maybe?  ::)

Offline Pac-Fish

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Re: What if...
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2012, 04:54:44 PM »
Why are u quoting things from like months ago? I quite honesty have no recollection of saying these things

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Offline krupp steel

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Re: What if...
« Reply #52 on: December 31, 2012, 10:42:23 PM »
Why are u quoting things from like months ago? I quite honesty have no recollection of saying these things
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Offline Jäger

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Re: What if...
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2013, 06:58:57 PM »
I continue to believe his biggest mistake was not allowing his generals to command, all the orders had to have been approved by him, another was the fact that had he taken out the RAF's airfields/airdomes instead of bombing London, he'd have been able to take out Britain in late '41 early '42.  The only thing Hitler could have done about Stalin is to build up an iron wall to the east, convince Japan not to attack the US and get the US to help in the war with the USSR. Hitler would have had nukes by '47 if that had happened, and the USSR would be seen as Nazi Germany is today, the 1000 year Reich could have still been around.

Public Opinion in the US would have never allowed that to happen. Though the US played it's Neutral card until Pearl Harbor, if anything, it would have never lended a hand to the Axis powers, they already had too much of a heavy investment economically in the Allies and culturally with the English.

Same way in WWI. Even if the US didn't code break the Zimmerman note, they still would have sided with the Allies unless attacked by one of them. They had much less economic ties to the Central Powers and did not share a common anything with them in all actuality.

That's not true, a lot of major American Companies were run by Nazi-Sympathizers, JFK's father was one, Gerald Ford was another. Roosevelt had a hard enough time even AFTER Pearl Harbour to convince the American people it was in their best interest to fight in WW2, Germany never would have won World War 2, but it sure as hell could've ended it better than it did.

Offline Jeff 'Robotnik' W.

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Re: What if...
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2013, 09:33:12 PM »
Keep in mind, the German war machine was tooled for a 5 month war. Then Hitler decided, hell ,why not invade Russia. It's not like dozens of military armies that vastly overpowered the Russians and then froze to death have anything to teach me. In fact, let me delay a bit while I fap and try to get off on England after I take over France and the low countries.

The 'cheap' T34 far outclassed anything the Germans had when they first encountered it. Only their better coordination and use of their armor permitted them to beat the T34. Even in France, the Char B1 bis and Valentine/Matilda were nigh invulnerable to anything the Germans had,  it was their poor use that got them killed. The only thing the Germans had that could stand a remote chance vs. Allied armor was an 88 screen, and only Erwin Rommel made sense to employ in any significant capacity, and even then, only towards the end of the battle.

Germany was prepared for a fast war of sweeping success, basically, "5 PG -> T2 -> 2+ IHTs -> baserush and fuck teching" was their gameplan. It was Hermann Göring's utter incompitence with the Luftwaffe, and Hitler's singleminded obsession with Stalingrad that (IMHO) ultimately doomed the German war machine--disregard "Oh, if they'd just produced the Pz IV, they'd be fine". The Russians still would have outperformed them in every production capacity, and the Pz IV production lines would be an even bigger target--when they would get put out of action via Anglo-American bombing raids, the entire Germand armored output (instead of part of it) would be destroyed.

Yes it is rather funny how the allies were the ones with heavilly armored and armed tanks at the begginning of the war while the germans used greater numbers and better tactics to destroy them. heck even the M3 Lee/grant was a tough nut to crack when it came out.

Though on the eastern front, while there were KV-1 and T34 tanks, they were nowhere available in large numbers like they were later in the war, and it wasnt helped by the fact that many factories were being evacuated to the urals. Instead the majority of tanks faced were BT tanks, which could be taken on equally by german tanks at the time

But when they did run into heavy tanks they relied on heavy arty like the 88 to take them out, and it proved deadly to the brits in the desert since most of the tanks their lacked high-explosive shells to take out the 88's until tanks like the M3 lee/grant and sherman came along