2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith

[Cranialwizard]

Thank you so much!

[Olorin]

I must say, overall I think the concept is great. However, I think that some of the units, the infantry in particular, seem rather generic. I have a suggestion of my own to make that may perhaps give more of a unique and individual feel to the faction.

I really like the idea of the 'reserve squad' but I think what I am proposing is a more evolved concept of it. Late in the war, Germany began using 'Volkssturm' troops, which means 'The people's storm' or something like that. I think this would be much more feasible than Hitler Youth conscripts, and they were much more widely used. The Volkssturm troops were mostly conscripts drawn from citizens that had been considered too young or too old to be conscripted before, of course with the impending defeat that changed things. Their basic function would be essentially as you outline for the reserve troops, but I think you can also go another step.

One thing that sometimes annoys me with company of heroes in general is that so many units use the same weapons, even if that is historically accurate, however it's cool to see some unique weapons that were still used on a wide enough scale to be believable in the game.

For the Volkssturm Squad, I think it would be interesting if they came with the MP-3008, a variant of the MP-40 redesigned to be manufactured cheaper for use among the Volkssturm. In gameplay terms it would function almost identically to the MP-40, but I believe it would add individuality and uniqueness to the unit while still maintaining historical accuracy and realism. As an upgrade option, I think the VG 1-5 would be appropriate. The VG 1-5 was a variant of the STG 44 intended specifically for the Volkssturm and redesigned to be manufactured more cheaply. In gameplay terms, it would be similar to the STG(MP)-44 except that it would be semi-automatic instead of automatic. The squad could, balance permitting, have the option to fire a panzerfaust at a nominal munition cost.

I believe that this would be much more interesting than the generic 'reserve squad' and realistic and fun.

MP-3008 Reference Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP_3008 [nofollow]

VG 1-5 Reference Page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturmgewehr_1-5 [nofollow]

Volkssturm Squad Visual Reference: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/volkssturm/ib_vs_img1.jpg [nofollow]

Volkstturm Poster: http://www.german-helmets.com/SAURLAND/poster-volkssturm-bw.jpg [nofollow]

EDIT: Alternatively, I came up with another possibility for the loadout and abilities of the Volkssturm Squad. The default Volkssturm Squad would have the MP-3008 as described, but then where it goes from there varies depending on whether you have built the Specialist Training Facility or the Emergency Supply Yard.

If you have built the Emergency supply yard, then the Volkssturm Squad can fire a panzerfaust, free of munitions, which would be balanced by a longer cooldown time perhaps. In the hypothetical adoption of this concept, the Volkssturm Squad could only fire the panzerfaust if you have the Emergency Supply Yard.

If you have built the Specialist Training Facility, then the Volkssturm squad does not have the ability to fire the panzerfaust period, and comes equipped with the VG 1-5 or alternatively has the ability to upgrade to the VG 1-5, as well as the ability to throw a grenade at a nominal munition cost.

Now that I think about it more, these ideas do fit the overall theme of this concept, which is the war in 'stages' so to speak. My concept for the unit is less of a 'cheap unit to spam' and more of a moderately effective unit that is very useful for those low on resources, and hence those who probably have less territory and are losing.

I will elaborate. With the emergency supply yard variant, the squad is going to be more of an anti-vehicle squad than an anti infantry. Since the panzerfaust uses are free, this encourages the use of the unit when the player has little to no access to munitions. This is counterbalanced by the fact that their is a relatively longer cooldown time compared to say the panzerfaust of the Volksgrenadier, and the fact that the panzerfaust is only marginally effective against armor compared to the panzershreck. Thus when the player is doing poorly/has few territories, they would be more likely to use this unit which actually reflects the historical employment of these soldiers, but when they are doing well they would be better off to spend the resources on troops that they can purchase panzershrecks for.

The same is true for the Specialist Training Facility variant, but in a slightly different sense. If they come equipped with the VG 1-5, they will be a decent anti-infantry squad. However, compared to a true STG 44, it is not nearly as effective since the VG 1-5 only has a semi-automatic firing mode. Therefore if the player has the resources to spend on troops that can have STG 44's purchased for them, then they would be better off doing so. However, in the opposite case, since the Volkssturm squad costs only manpower, I would presume, that the cost of the lessened effectiveness would be worth the trade-off due to the fact that you do not have to expend munitions to get the VG 1-5.

This unit would be able to help the Ostheer player stabilize his line and regain his footing against swarms of cheap Soviet infantry or vehicles until more territories can be acquired and more powerful units purchased. Not to mention the fact that since this is not a tier 1 unit, that I do not think it would be particularly unbalancing.

I have some other ideas floating around in my head to improve the overall idea of this particular concept for the Ostheer faction, and would be glad to share them if you are interested.

[wordsmith]

@Olorin - wow, first of all I'm impressed with your research ability and want to thank you for putting a new ideas into this concept. I like your proposal of weapons for Reserve squad, it could fit and would be playable as well. 

My original idea of Reserve squad was to have some cheap infantry which could be literally spammed to quick regain of some territories. I got this idea playing Soviets because in late game sometimes I got pushed back and Soviet Conscripts were always good and cheap alternative to regain map control, even in late game with lots of armors and elite infantry around. It work quite good for Soviet and supplement its late war units. Germans too, when defendig their "Fatherland" were forced to use everything (everyone) to stop the Red Tide of Soviets. Using Volksturm or Hitleryouth was one of those desperate measures so I wanted to implement it into Ostheer too. Your ideas enhance Reserve squad idea, so I think you should post it into units idea thread too:

--> Lord Rommel - Unit suggestion thread
... with explanations of function of Reserves and possible upgrades, you can call it Ostheer Volksturm or something like that

About my concept in general... I think lot of players don't like the Fuel loss principle idea. Again it was idea to have early armors faster then other factions but for a price - fuel loss, since german armors were very valuable late in the war. When I thought about this more deeply I realized that this idea is not very good because it would be hard to balance and will put very big gap between good players and those average - simply because average players would not be able to benefit from early armors and would eventually loose due to lack of fuel. On the other hand good players able to benefit from quick armors would literally roll over the opponents and again average players would be beaten and would curse the imbalance .

Another flaw of my concept would be redundancy of some units, this I realized when I wrote this Unit summary:

--> General unit summary analysis

I think that the best it would be to rework the whole concept and maybe to combine it with my other idea of Campaign style tech-up:

-->New Ost. tech idea - optional tech system
... but I don't have time for this .

IMO the Devs would come up with their own idea of Ostheer, maybe inspired by some ideas posted here in forum so there's no need to write whole concepts, just some interesting thoughts.

[Olorin]

One thing I always liked about the British was their defensive playstyle. I like to turtle a lot, and it' something that the Wehrmacht and Panzer Elite can't really do. I thought the whole idea of a mobile base was brilliant, as you could choose to set up and fortify the most defensible position.

Assuming that the overall concept for the Ostheer does follow the soviet one which involves depicting the start of the war to the end, I think it would be interesting to give the final stage of the Ostheer a defensive spin. I came up with an idea that is inspired by the British, but distinct and wholly unique.

So assuming that the faction will follow the flow of the war, with tier 3 representing the Germans on the defensive, I think it would be interesting to give the faction a potential to play defensively a bit, if the player chooses.

I took a look at the Defensive Station and came up with a unique idea. First, the forward strong point should just be done away with. The idea I have is that the Defensive Station would be a base building as you described, except that you have the ability to build it in any friendly territory, with a limit of being able to just have 1 Defensive Station at a time. In addition to that, there are a few things that would also make this unique, the first being is that it is a base building that you can build in any friendly territory, which is unique among any CoH faction as far as I know.

I had some ideas of a few features for the building in addition to this. One or several of the following could be implemented

-Infantry units can reinforce from the Defensive station
-The station can be upgraded to heal infantry in the territory
-The station provides a defensive bonus, similar to the British Captain, to all units in the territory.
-All infantry gain the ability to retreat to wherever the Defensive Station is built
-The station can be garrisoned
-The station has a mortar pit
-The station has a flakvierling on top

In particular, I think the ability for infantry to retreat to the building and the ability for infantry to reinforce from it are critical. Using this concept, the base building functions as the last tier 3 building, and can function as a kind of final redoubt, since it can be built in whatever territory you won and can be placed in a very defensible area, which reflects the defensive nature the war took on for the Germans following their defeat Kursk.

Of course with the removal of the Forward Strong Point, they would need some other defensive structure, which I have not thought of yet.

[wordsmith]

Yes this is an unique idea indeed, to have one unit producing building as a defensive building - something like forward HQ but able to build everywhere. But as you describe it, it would be OP for sure I know it would be nice, but no one will play against Ostheer then.

Try to imagine: every unit could retreat to some point which is close to frontline, and they got reinforced and healed at this point. And this building could produce even new units and would have defensive Flak + Mortar pit. As such it should cost like 1000MP, 200Ammo and 100Fuel to produce It would be like fortress in the middle of the battlefield - and thus a target of every Allies direct or indirect fire units. It would create a massive mayhem...

If you compare to other factions:
- Wehr bunker could reinforce but only as doctrinal
- Wehr forward HW could be build only in present buildings and could not heal
- PE forward HQ could heal and reinforce but could not produce new units and should be build in present buildings too
- none of them has any defensive weaponry, although could be garrisoned
- player could not retreat to them

My forward strongpoint was suggested as alternative to classic bunker of Wehr - it could be upgraded to Healing station or to Observation tower giving increased sight range which could be really good for defence - supposing you put 2x Pak & 1x Mortar(Light Arty) somewhere behind and one MG inside the tower. As such it could complement also when playing combination of Wehr+Ostheer because those abilities could combine creating really nasty defensive points.

[Olorin]

Oh no no no no, I think you misunderstood me.

I listed those as possible features, they weren't intended to all be included together. I simply suggested that one or several of them could be used, definitely not all of them.

My personal suggestion was just that it would be able to create certain units, serve as a reinforce point, and serve as a retreat point. If that suggestion was taken, then also having it have a mortar pit/flakvierling would be overkill.

but just having it as a unit creation, reinforce, and retreat point I think would be unique among the factions, and certainly no more overpowering than the British mobile HQ's, and of course it has the disadvantage of not being able to move. It would also be balanced out by having the faction not have any other field barracks/forward reinforce point options.

Then of course there is the problem of defensive buildings. I think a mortar bunker would be a cool option that could be limited to a defensive oriented doctrine and be balanced by a fuel cost or pop cap cost similar to the British mortar pit. Of course the advantage over the British mortar pit is that this one is concrete.

However, since that would be a unique doctrinal building, that leaves a vacancy for a defensive building that all the doctrines can use. The standard bunker as used by the Wehrmacht would seem rather cliche, but an interesting alternative would be some kind of buildable garrisonable structure, but how this would be differentiated from the Wehrmacht bunker and British/Soviet slit trenches,  I do not know.

[cephalos]

However, since that would be a unique doctrinal building, that leaves a vacancy for a defensive building that all the doctrines can use. The standard bunker as used by the Wehrmacht would seem rather cliche, but an interesting alternative would be some kind of buildable garrisonable structure, but how this would be differentiated from the Wehrmacht bunker and British/Soviet slit trenches,  I do not know.

Well, so maybe Ostheer Infantry should have something like "firepoint" - I would look like brits Mg bunker without bunker. It could hide only one infantry unit up to 6 men, they would shoot from it and have quite good protection. However it shouldn't be like brits trench, because trech is hard to destroy using arty.
And yes, it should be doctrinal building, maybe for 100 Mp.

[sovietwarmachine]

i still think that the fule loss theroy while historicly acurate it is not good for ballance espesaily vs the russain tank swarm or atr swarms but other wise great docterine

[wordsmith]

i still think that the fuel loss theory while historically accurate it is not good for ballance especially vs the russian tank swarm or atr swarms but otherwise great doctrine

Yes I agree - see my post here up on this page...it just don't fit to majority players play style. I think my concept needs rework again, perhaps combining it with my idea of campaign tech system, but no time for now.

[Ltevanlee]

Good for the most part needs light vehicles. I don't like the fuel decrees in latter game it could cause problems against the Russian tank hordes, add different assault infantry ( Stormtroopers sound too much like the Wehrmacht,  Waffen SS Assault Troops?). 

[hengyuda]

I like the doctrines in this concept. They are sure 'doctrinal'. Is there somewhere posted how the Ostheer doctrines will look like?

[Ghost]

I like the doctrines in this concept. They are sure 'doctrinal'. Is there somewhere posted how the Ostheer doctrines will look like?

not until now. but on 15. april something will be posted