Soviet Infantry

[Fuhrious]

CoH:EF v1.01

Congratulations to the makers of this mod for a superb job indeed. I am quite impressed in general with the balance currently considering this mod is just released. By far and away much better than the day one balance of CoH:Opposing Fronts.

Despite the complaints of many a noob the early game balance is the high point for me. A very interesting fight, with the biggest negative being the unarmed members of the conscript squads always running out of cover (causing squad suppression and manpower loss). I also quite like the armor depot too for balance.

It's in the mid game that I starting to think the Soviet has some design flaws with their infantry. For starters, the conscript squads because complete rubbish at this stage and one needs better infantry. This is where the options are a little puzzling.

Probably at this point you will build a support centre or hold out a little longer to get a tank depot, either which unlocks the strelky. But vanilla strelky are not much better than conscripts it seems. So to get something that will hold up to axis infantry you really need to do some research for one of your infantry types.

Quite bizarrely all three types of infantry cost 200 munitions to upgrade (and will not affect existing units so what you have on the field at this stage is almost zero value junk). This seems strange. Since by now you should be able to build strelky the conscripts upgrade seems completely redundant. Upgraded strelky are not too flash compared to vetted wehr troops but a damn sight better than conscripts.

If you have a fuel advantage you may want to place both tank depot and supply centre, research the guards upgrade and produce them. These are excellent infantry and remain competitive even in the very late game.

As I write this thread it's becoming clearer what had been bothering me: the research upgrade costs of infantry. There needs to be an incentive to produce and research finer increments of better infantry rather than just jump form the very bottom to the very top. Only if I am at a bad fuel disadvantage will I make strelky and vetted strelky to get me through the middle game. Tbh, those games usually go bad because strelky don't seem too great, and once you blow the munitions on their upgrade you further delay any chance of vetted guards appearing. Vetted conscripts seems to have no place in the world.

Post Merge: January 28, 2010, 10:15:48 AMA friend just suggested perhaps the conscripts upgrade be made to affect existing units. I think this could be an interesting option for a situation where you had invested a lot in early canon fodder and want to turn that horde into something half decent for a second wave ready to go.

[Capt. Malashenko]

Conscripts (veted or not) are certainly good for one thing - guarding the resources. If you play against the AI - you`ll definitely use this. they cost no pop and if you put them in some building they can survive for quite long.
Soviets don`t reinforce. Tactic that worked with all other factions and based on preserving the units doesn`t apply to Soviets. That`s why old squads are not affected by new upgrades - no one expects them to live long enough to see mid. game. If fact, my point of view is that first waves should be crap inf, middle game waves get some upgrade by that time, and by the end you have enough upg. inf.  to make a difference. But to be honest, except T-34/85 and PPSH Strelky upgrade, there is not a single useful 200/300MUN upgrade, and even so after these two it almost the end game and I rarely sow anyone make any other upgrade but these two.
After all, Soviet inf. is there to die, that`s why there`s no retreat, upkeep or hope for them.  And that works - new squads keep coming...

[terrorguy]

i think the guards are a little too strong i think
cause they have good grenade abilities can't be supressed
good armor good rifles an they are most of all too cheap i think

[Fuhrious]

Conscripts (veted or not) are certainly good for one thing - guarding the resources. If you play against the AI - you`ll definitely use this. they cost no pop and if you put them in some building they can survive for quite long.

I agree they are good in the early game. They do their job and then are soon obsolete. If you keep making them once grenadiers are fielded you will get caught pouring MP into this without any good effect. What to do in the early-mid/mid game to move onto better infantry that will allow you to keep pace with axis? That is what my post is about. I think possibly the answer is that strelky are simply not good enough to carry the soviets through the middle game.

But to be honest, except T-34/85 and PPSH Strelky upgrade, there is not a single useful 200/300MUN upgrade, and even so after these two it almost the end game and I rarely sow anyone make any other upgrade but these two.

The strelky upgrade is ok, it makes reasonable infantry, but unfortunately they are soon outclassed by any axis infantry with vet. This is a danger since if you blew 200mun upgrading strelky you could be waiting some time for your next 200mun to upgrade the guards. The guards upgrade is outstanding - they are crack infantry and if you can get them out early they can dominate, and even in late game can handle elite axis infantry. Actually the other upgrade you are forgetting is the very handy engineers upgrade.

i think the guards are a little too strong i think
cause they have good grenade abilities can't be supressed
good armor good rifles an they are most of all too cheap i think

Hmmm yes and no. If they are rushed as I often yes they are quite devastating, perhaps too much so. The immunity to suppression is too much I agree (a nasty flashback to how panzer grenadiers used to just run past the US 30cal MG). However for late game axis infantry they definitely need to be as tough as they are, and their grenade abilities are important for them to be able to compete.
Post Merge: January 31, 2010, 06:01:57 PMI noticed the v1.02 patch has made some changes to the strelky. Not quite sure how these will measure up in terms of carrying the soviet through the middle game but will report back. On my initial test I couldn't see any of the squad weapon upgrade options that were now meant to available.