Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Suggestions => Red Army Suggestions => Topic started by: Pajeu on January 03, 2013, 10:49:06 AM
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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Anti-tank_gun_45mm_m1937_parola_1.jpg/300px-Anti-tank_gun_45mm_m1937_parola_1.jpg)
(http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/14/55/40/83/russia16.jpg)
Maybe, can we put this marvellous gun in the mustering tent as a first light AT gun support for the troops...
The 45 mm anti-tank gun model 1937 (factory designation 53-K) was a light quick-firing anti-tank gun used in the first stage of the German-Soviet War. It was created by Soviet artillery designer M.N. Loginov. Due to insufficient armor penetration it was replaced in service by the long-barreled 45 mm anti-tank gun M1942 (M-42).
The gun bearing factory designation 53-K (Cyrillic 53-К) was a combination of a modified carriage of the 37 mm anti-tank gun model 1931 (built according to a documentation bought from Rheinmetall) with a 45 mm barrel. The resulting light semi-automatic anti-tank gun was adopted for Red Army service in 1937, and thus known as "45 mm anti-tank gun M1937" (Russian: 45-мм противотанковая пушка образца 1937 года). These guns were used in the first stage of the German-Soviet War, but their anti-armor capabilities allowed them to fight successfully only with German light tanks and armored personnel carriers. Early models of the Panzer III and Panzer IV could also be knocked out at close range, but this put Soviet artillerymen in greater danger. Due to these circumstances, model 1937 guns were replaced with the all-new design, the more powerful model 1942. The mass production of outdated model 1937 guns was stopped in 1943. The total number of guns produced was 37,354.
Two such guns were employed as an anti-tank platoons, organic to each rifle battalion. Additionally a dozen (12 guns) was in anti-tank battalions at a level of a rifle division. It was also used by separate anti-tank regiments (4-5 batteries of 4 guns each).
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/45_mm_anti-tank_gun_M1937_(53-K)
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That History lesson sounds absolutely wonderful, but why do the Soviets require such a unit? They have Tank Hunters and a ZiS-3 for early-mid game anti-tank/anti vehicle
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Yeah, we already got problems finding a proper space for the Pak36 in the Ostheer as it is just so useless. I doubt we'll make it.
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The ifantry tank hunters is not so effective than a at gun, which would be available as soon as possible - from the mustering tent, for exemple.
Of course it has usefulness against a Panzer 35 (t), a panzer II or agains the italian units that seems will appear in the ostheer patch...
In fact, the number gun manufactured (more than 37 thousand) show its utility in the real war.
Personaly, I'am a infantry close support guns real fan; the battlefield become more dynamic with it. I love the 76 mm regimental gun M1927, but unfortunately EF put it in the pit, not do it mobile like Westfront mod
By the way, more we have new units, more fun we have too...
À la prochaine,
P.
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By the way, more we have new units, more fun we have too...
That's actually wrong... We are not Blitzkrieg.
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That's actually wrong... We are not Blitzkrieg.
??? Sorry, I don't understand... I propose just one more gun to help the lonely Zis 2... There are mods -another than Blitzkrieg- that presents three axis guns: pak36, pak38 and pak340, and the omnipresent 88mm too!!!
P.
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The problem is; we need a function and a place for this small gun.
Imagine this 45mm is your main Anti tank gun and u can/have to kill late game tanks with this guns.
So most of the players would start to cry; thats not logical. This gun is too weak to pen a Tiger (e.g.).
But when u make this gun too weak to pen late game tanks everyone will say that this gun is useless
because for the most parts late game is dominated by armoured warfare ;)
It is difficult to implement stuff. We have a lot of weapon we would like to add but we cant find a
role or position... 45mm gun is just one weapon on this list...
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That's actually wrong... We are not Blitzkrieg.
??? Sorry, I don't understand... I propose just one more gun to help the lonely Zis 2... There are mods -another than Blitzkrieg- that presents three axis guns: pak36, pak38 and pak340, and the omnipresent 88mm too!!!
P.
Yes, but we are not Blitzkreig Mod, this is the Eastern Front mod. They do not do what Blitzkreig does, EF team puts units in for specific roles, not just because they existed or look cool.
Since they don't add units for any random reason, the 45mm gun has no role in the Soviets unless you make it a reward unit for the Tank Hunters, in which case you may as well get the ZiS-3 early on, shoots slower, but a higher range and more damage will completely outclass it, no use for the 45mm in the end.
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@Pajeu
At the time your opponent can call-in all those vehicles you mention you will already have enough AT power to kill them. So no need for a new gun, specially on T1.
Also, regardless how many mods use three axis at guns for a single axis faction, EF doesn't need such feature for soviets. You only need one type of AT gun, if you don't have doctrinal AT support, then add an infantry AT squad(or an upgrade to it), but by any means not a new AT gun. This new soviet atg is not suitable to guard the flanks of the ZiS2, just like you wouldn't use a PaK36 to keep the flanks safe for a PaK38 or a PaK40, which is why you need a different type of unit to support them.
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Not to put myself on the sharp side of an argument here, but has anyone considered this AT gun not as a normal AT weapon, but instead as a detrimental or griefing weapon, like the Light AT halftrack? I know that Strelky have recently adopted this role themselves, but their slowing effect with the AT shot is not permanent.
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The thing is, this weapon is not as mobile as the ATHT so it won't be half useful. There is no need to make a new AT gun, because Tank Hunters are there to support ZiS-2. If Tank Hunters are too weak for the role, the solution shouldn't be to make a new unit to make it work better, but to increase the effectiveness of the THs.
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Hi, Bishop!
Hi, guys!
Well... EF is not Blitzkrieg: I'm able to realize it!
Maybe, you are not thinking about the single players - which fights against the AI, like me, for exemple; we never finish to fight the monster armors like Tiger or Panther...
The germans were stoped in the Moscow with weapons like that - 45mm at guns, T26, BT7, T28 and eve some T35...
Anyway, it seems that the Ostheer is more prolific in news and differents units - there are ever italian and hugarian units; either so obsolete than a light tank L6 or a semovente 47/32 - against which the 45mm doesn't make bad. Then, I can ask me: why the soviets doesn't have a BA 10, a BT 7 or a 45mm at gun, or why the 76 mm regimental gun M1927 is not a mobile one? And if you like tell about doctrine... it doesn't make sens that a short barrel gun (that was used almost in direct fire against the enemie) be placed in a nest!
The quantity is not the unique business, but it make the battlefield more spice... And don't tell me that EF is not Blitzkrieg: I'm able to see it, how I already told!
Finally, above all EF did appear like a russian point of vue CoH mod, not like more a german or axis mod... but with the Ostheer patch, I believe that the russians will not be enough represented in theyr own mod.
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Soviets are not going to be correctly represented just by adding one more weapon or a new tank to it, if a unit is going to be added it needs to be justified. Soviets already have their unit selection and anything else we add might be redundant. However, there is place to sort out some things when we finish Ostheer assets, and you know anything about Soviets vs Ostheer balance yet, so it is too early to make assumptions.
It is obvious than Ostheer has more news than Soviets because as we have stated many times before, we follow a certain order, Soviets had their time and people is waiting Ostheer, so you won't see any update about soviet models until we finish the assets for Ostheer, just as the news about the campaigns are scarce because it is not their time yet.
Release Soviets
- Release Ostheer
- Rework Soviet models
- Campaigns
I'm not sure why would you expect a different order if we have always followed this plan ;).
Besides what it might appear, all the active staff has a lot of work at their end, so the progress comes very slow. So no way to have both, Ostheer news and Soviet news in the same period of time.
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[...]
The germans were stoped in the Moscow with weapons like that - 45mm at guns, T26, BT7, T28 and eve some T35...
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This argument/logic is working the other way round too.
German 3,7cm Pak 36 had destroyed a high number of BT and T-26 tanks so we should implement it ;)
There are enough reasons for or against a weapon. So we have no lack of weapons but a lack of ingame space ^^
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;D Hi, guys...
You're right to forbid your point of vue.
You're right.
That's it.
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The thing is, PTRDs + ZiS 2 + Strelky Stun ability are fine for infantry based anti-tank support. We wouldn't put the 45mm guns just because they work fine against the foreign tanks, because the other things mentioned before will work just as fine or even better than it. Which is why we said than no matter it was used in high numbers it just doesn't have a place.
T26, BT7, T35, T28... all these tanks were used by Soviets, just like SU100, SU152, ISU122 and many other units we don't feature in the mod because we don't need them or there is already another unit that has that very role. Adding a T26 next to a T70 just to for variety sake or historic relevance is wrong for CoH standards/gameplay. Reward unit might fit, but then again we might refer to our priorities.
Why the 76 mm regimental gun M1927 is not a mobile one? Because we didn't make or animate the model and the only animations it has fits with static emplacements. You should be happy it was added to propaganda as it rather than not added at all :-X.
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;D Hi, Bishop!
Yo me rendo...
No problem, man! All of your reasons are right. I've just done a suggestion. My fun, how you know, is the early time of the war.
I've no fun with a JS 2, a Tiger, Jagdtiger, Panter or Pershing...
Me gusta the little and kind units, just like you will add to Ostheer. I'm glad with that; you don't know how much...
A panzer 35 (t) was always my dreaming. You can imagine my bliss when I did see a Semovente 47 and a L6 in the EF plans!
CoH & EF for me is a passion - I have just fun with... From the my boyhood I've always studyied the WWII. I've hundred of books about it... Thus, I understand your arguments, but a game is a fun place as well, where we can dream and play like a little boy.
It's not a place JUST for rules and doctrines, you know. I have it enough in my profession and in my real life, man!
I'm a 50 years old man and you can imagine how is a life in a 20 million habitants city, where I live in.
I would just like have fun with EF...
8) By the way: I have a mobile 76mm regimental gun in my EF (imported from European Theater) and a BA 64 that I've discovered in the early EF version files...
Best regards,
P.
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Some of these units could be used as reward units, however some of them can't. We'll see what can be done for the soviet reward units once we finish OH stuff, we have some plans and you will probably like them :). Stay tuned!
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We could give the 45mm gun an ability that lets it damage engines (after support barracks upgrades), it would make the unit similar to how PE uses its AT HT.
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By the way, more we have new units, more fun we have too...
That's actually wrong... We are not Blitzkrieg.
We actually had the pak36 in for testing purposes in an older version of the Ostheer, and well ... to put it short: it's not working - pak weapons in CoH are only useful because of high damage + high penetration + high range. The pak36 lacks both penetration and damage. It would be maximum useful to kill an Greyhound, and for that matter you can use schrecks, mines or Marder, StuG, etc, which arrive around the same time as a Greyhound.
As you probably already know from the sneak peeks, the Ostheer already has plenty of (long) range AT units, so it's unnecessary to add another pak. And I agree with walki in this point: to include a unit just for the sake of including it is the wrong way, so we're not doing it. ;)
We could give the 45mm gun an ability that lets it damage engines (after support barracks upgrades), it would make the unit similar to how PE uses its AT HT.
Sure, we could do that. But putting an engine critical thingy on a AT weapon is pretty broken to begin with... Nobody can tell me that the AT ht is fun to play against or well designed. Besides, using an OP ability on an UP vehicle is also not the best idea also...
Greetings ;)
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Some of these units could be used as reward units, however some of them can't. We'll see what can be done for the soviet reward units once we finish OH stuff, we have some plans and you will probably like them :). Stay tuned!
Like the return of the SU-100? ;)
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The 45mm gun could have a few AI capablilities, using HE rounds ability it could potentially snipe away at targets with support. The ability would make the gun stationary, costs 35 munitions, but then fires somewhat faster and shoots HE shells that could be as effective as PanzerIV shells.
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I have been thinking about this lately actually, what you could do is have the long barrel 45mm from the start and you get the Zis-2 after you buy the gunnery upgrade.
This would be pretty cool i think ;D The 45mm would do pretty good against ACs/Stugs/panzerIVs but you would need the gunnery upgrade to deal with panthers.
Also about the Zis-2, am i the only one who thinks the bunker down skill is out of place ???, since the zis-2 the upgrade basicly makes it most suited for defensive action, not like the AP round or the stealth which are useful in both defence and attack :-\ Something else, like a rapidfire thing or something like that would be much more useful.
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Well. The problem is; With 2 different anti tank guns in one faction one of the two anti tank guns will be redundant during the game.
One anti tank gun per nation is the maximum (out of my view).
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Well. The problem is; With 2 different anti tank guns in one faction one of the two anti tank guns will be redundant during the game.
One anti tank gun per nation is the maximum (out of my view).
Ah right, good point. Makes sense ;D