Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Temur on July 12, 2012, 02:03:36 PM
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Is it me or have guards been nerfed so much that they are rarely worth getting? Though they definitely used to be way too overpowered (free grenades, upgraded squad sizes almost as big a strelky, no need for weapon upgrades)
Now
Guards compared to Strelky
Pro:
-Krak grenades
-Good bonuses veterancy wise
Con:
-Lots of teching
-Smaller squad
-Costly manpower
-No associated buff like Strelky sprint
-AT easily kited
-Four man squad
It just seems in practice there is rarely any need to use guards at all, strelky are powerful with upgrade as it is vs infantry, cheaper as well. With naval infantry in the game guard seems almost obsolete like Knights cross holders, late game infantry with little justifying their purchase. The only real time I use guard now is if i churn them out from red tide ability of propaganda tree
Perhaps some sort of cap rate boost could justify their use as "vanguard troops"
on a side note:
whatever happened to trenches?
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Guards are OP now IMO. THey have a huge amount of health, can still be unsurpressed (vet 3 however), extremely powerful weapons, and get a free DP which can be used while running, and their nades seem to do a huge amount of dmg. ALso IDK if its jus me but it seems like when they throw the AT nade the nade actually follows the tank, making kiting kinda useless. They can even beat KCH.
Strelky are alot weaker health wise, their weapons not as powerful, and need RBS to scale with vet grens while guards can still go w/o shock upgrade.
And trenches were removed cause they promote static gameplay AFAIK.
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Guards are OP now IMO. THey have a huge amount of health, can still be unsurpressed (vet 3 however), extremely powerful weapons, and get a free DP which can be used while running, and their nades seem to do a huge amount of dmg. ALso IDK if its jus me but it seems like when they throw the AT nade the nade actually follows the tank, making kiting kinda useless. They can even beat KCH.
Strelky are alot weaker health wise, their weapons not as powerful, and need RBS to scale with vet grens while guards can still go w/o shock upgrade.
And trenches were removed cause they promote static gameplay AFAIK.
I agree that guards are solid units theoretically, but in practice because of their arrival in late game (they take as much teching as a tank damn it!) their practical use is pretty low and often become a bad drain on manpower when you do use them.
Where as strelkys generally shred axis units in less than 2 seconds with their ppsh upgrade + sprint ability, 75% times kills a entire squad for good
though it definitely is a difficult situation because i think SU is overall still rather OP and it wouldnt be good if guards got any attack boosts or so
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I agree that guards are solid units theoretically\\
If you've ever played a game vs another player (Im not saying you dont), you'll find Guard spam backed by AT is very hard to overcome. You get topline infantry who arent THAT much (if you wait for 60 more mp you can get them instead of Strelky) and the reinforce is like 37 IIRC which isnt that much either. And they do terrible things to Axis, especially to PE O_o :P
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Is it me or have guards been nerfed so much that they are rarely worth getting? Though they definitely used to be way too overpowered (free grenades, upgraded squad sizes almost as big a strelky, no need for weapon upgrades)
Now
Guards compared to Strelky
Pro:
-Frag Grenade- You forgot Guards have the all-powerful Pineapple
-Krak grenades
-Good bonuses veterancy wise
Con:
-Lots of teching- ??? ???
-Smaller squad -Ok, but Guards overall have much, much more health and armor than Strelky, they don't need to be big. The increased health of the squad overall is a Pro, not a con.
-Costly manpower-Of Course they are. They're late game elite infantry. You get 4 supermen for 340 manpower. Think of Knights Cross Holders.
-No associated buff like Strelky sprint-Sure, but all 3 doctrines offer an active ability to take place of this
-AT easily kited- ??? ???
-Four man squadThis is the same thing as "Smaller Squad"
I've gone through your list with commentary. Strelky are Mid-Game infantry, and Guards are Elite End-Game infantry. They are evenly priced, insanely powerful, can run and gun with a DP-28, have a backup AT option, are very healthy, have strong veterancy, and have a wide option of weapon upgrades/combinations available to them that just make them bad-ass.
The Guards have few weaknesses, namely, Snipers (Abuse) and flamethrowers.
on a side note:
whatever happened to trenches?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg)
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on a side note:
whatever happened to trenches?
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/000/554/facepalm.jpg)
(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/2994/faceplama.png)
Regarding Guards: pretty much what the others said. They're extremely powerful lategame infantry. They're not meant to be used as main infantry, that's what Strelky are for. They're badass units to help out where you have trouble the most.
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IDK why but I cant help but laugh at the 2nd one XD
But on a serious note Guards are pretty OP. If you have replay of them getting completely owned you could show us to persuade us.
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I Agree with Sharks. I find that strelky get underused consequently. 150muni to upg squad weapons plus 50 Fl for Red_Banner. Using CT0 0r CT2 you get Guards on the cheap. The Breakthrough doctrine is particulaly usefull with shock guards up grades adds that suppressing LMG that still shoots on the move is very usefull. Proaganda gives NI for MP and guards for munis. . just cap 2 medium muni points. I usually end up with 5 NKVD squads strength 1m at HQ. Strelky aren't in it. With CT_1 or CT_2 5 conscript squads can be built with no pop and no drain on the manpower. aquisition rate. Makes it much easier to purchase tank riders.
you note that I have not had to consider how effective Strelky are compared to Guards in this diatribe. To my way of thinking Strelky will be underutilized until the requirement of acquiring a T2 upgrade to deploy them is removed.
have one additional comment to Darkreavers statement that guards are lategame infantry. If you obtain the from the CT they are mid-game infantry coming as the do athe second CT upg.
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What is the Sniper Abuse you are talking about Cranial? Regarding Flamers, I find them to be glass cannons, utterly destroyed by guards even before they get close. Because I am not an Idiot, I will not Mention SU vs US matchups.
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I Agree with Sharks. I find that strelky get underused consequently. 150muni to upg squad weapons plus 50 Fl for Red_Banner. Using CT0 0r CT2 you get Guards on the cheap. The Breakthrough doctrine is particulaly usefull with shock guards up grades adds that suppressing LMG that still shoots on the move is very usefull. Proaganda gives NI for MP and guards for munis. . just cap 2 medium muni points. I usually end up with 5 NKVD squads strength 1m at HQ. Strelky aren't in it. With CT_1 or CT_2 5 conscript squads can be built with no pop and no drain on the manpower. aquisition rate. Makes it much easier to purchase tank riders.
Afaik you only play games against cpu right? You can't really say Strelky are underused. They have powerful rifles, have low reinforce cost and are very versatile in terms of damage output. On top they have very strong veterancy and you automatically get them once you research a t2 tech. They're pretty efficient because of this.
you note that I have not had to consider how effective Strelky are compared to Guards in this diatribe. To my way of thinking Strelky will be underutilized until the requirement of acquiring a T2 upgrade to deploy them is removed.
have one additional comment to Darkreavers statement that guards are lategame infantry. If you obtain the from the CT they are mid-game infantry coming as the do athe second CT upg.
Not really. You can use them earlier, but they only become rly useful when you research shock guards, for which you only have fuel lategame.
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Darcreaver you are correct I am a compstomper. As such you and I approach game play differently. I don't think that should be an issue. There are different ways to play. You play tactically and I play strategically These are labels not qualitative judgements . My qualitative judgement is that tactics = strategy. IE balanced.
As a balancer you are looking at squad stats and how well human controlled squads perform in combat. I will call this tactics. I with the AI for EF_Mod purposes. My views are subect to the rules of play set down for AI as well as whatever my opinion is worth from a tactical perspective. I work with the economics and numbers if you will.
In EF_1.6.x the computer has only one rule concerning conscripts, strelky NI and guards squads. There will be not more than three of any of the squads in game (5 for conscripts). This means the AI will select infantry squads on the basis of aiclass values, availability and a quantative evaluation of An army's needs regarding enemy class ratings. Unfortunately there are some errors in the 1.6 coding and NI squads appear in greater numbers then 3.
In my compstomping experience NI and conscripts are the AI squads of choice. Guards come next and Stelky appear in mumbers less then or equal to guards. (If you see more than 4 ingeneri squads in a single ai faction player you have beaten the AI resource bonus part of the game).
In my compstomping experience the requirement to have a Sov SSB upgrade makes Strelky unattractive. As long as you have only ingeneri and conscripts as your on map infantry you are maximizing the mp gain rate IE human MP can be => AI MP. This is balance from a compstomp POV.
have one additional comment to Darkreavers statement that guards are lategame infantry. If you obtain the from the CT they are mid-game infantry coming as the do athe second CT upg.
Not really. You can use them earlier, but they only become rly useful when you research shock guards, for which you only have fuel lategame.
I agree about Shock guards being really useful. My observation about CT abilities reduces the MP cost to obtain guards. However shockguards costs 50_FL. Molotovs and Reb_Banner cost 55 FL.
Back to the balance discussion. As I suggested earlier there are no rules for the AI to acquire T1 infantry squads. Working with the team to develop the AI I am intensely interested in the qualitative evaluation of infantry types. EF_Ostheer will use a vCoH consistent dynamic demand system to purchase Squads. My present intention is to put a 10% demand on Conscripts and a 15% demand on both Strelky and Guards. the Relic rules for munitions using units will raise the conscript demand a little when they upg to molotovs. Guards will have a higher demand because of grenades. If a munitions using ability is added to the Strelky we will see the 10/15/15 parity restored. BTW the dynamic demand system will further change the equation and will be based on conditions in play in the game. IE molotovs make conscripts more valuable vs infantry. KRAK grenades make guards more valuable against vehicles.
Carry on the discussion I am all ears. Sorry about all the typos. that is in part what this Halfhand BS is all about.
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There will be a few adjustments to Guards and Strelky in the next patch, mostly in regard to the way they access AT. Guard DP-28 is getting a slight nerf while moving, so you won't be able to blob around as easily. The smoke on Guards and NI is also being improved a bit so it can actually be used to make a path for other units. The intended Guard purpose is to push up to an MG, kill/block it and the rest of your units move in. Currently the smoke is of too short duration for this to work.
Strelky are powerful T2 infantry that dominate T1 units and compete with Grens with upgrades. They have around half the reinforce cost of Grens.
Guards are very powerful T3/4 units that are supposed to eliminate high value targets of the enemy so the rest of your blob can move in. I guess you can say they are a breakthrough infantry.
Guards are a much larger drain on your economy but are pretty damn powerful. It's unwise to spam them but getting 1-2 squads mixed with Strelky or cons is extremely effective. It will probably be easier to get Shock Guards for only a couple squads next patch as well, so it's more viable to get a limited number of them to support your main body of infantry.
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Dennis just how good are guards with rifleupg at long range. I always want to use them for brakthrough
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AFAIK SVT40 is like G43, Guard PPH is like MP44
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The guards are not so effective with the PPH as pg with the mp44. thanks for the rifle data
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Well Guards with PPH > PG with MP44. And with vet they really dominate PG. At least atm.
BTW what I said wasn't exact data but just an idea on how to use each of the units. They are similar but not exact :P. For exapmle you wouldnt rush a G43 PG to point blank range of a squad firing at u. Same goes for SVT I guess.
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SVT does 14 damage over 12 for the G43. You also get 3 of them, instead of just 2 for PGs. The SVT is extremely strong but isn't actually that great on the move. If you want your Guards to lead the way using smoke and cover to survive a long time (ie. support use), use the SVT. If you want them to rush in and wreck shit, upgrade to Shock Guards and use PPSs.
The SVT is probably in the running for best weapon in the game along with BAR, FG42 and MP44.
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I think the FG42 is the best IMO :D. Awesome firepower and range and with vet it just dominates.
OT but whats better, MP44 or Sten?
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MP44 is much better because it ignores armour type. Sten is mitigated by elite.
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So if we are evaluating Guards and Strelky how does the damage per rifle compare for Guards/Strelky Moisins? IIRC conscript moisins return 8-9 damage per. Might as well throw in ings and NI if your working from a spread sheet.
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# dp_lmg.rgd (Strelky DP-28)
| Zaxis S DPS = 14.65
| Zaxis M DPS = 6.7
| Zaxis L DPS = 2.83
# naval_dp_lmg.rgd (NI DP-28)
| Zaxis S DPS = 21.02
| Zaxis M DPS = 6.29
| Zaxis L DPS = 2.37
# shock_guard_dp_lmg.rgd (Guard DP-28)
| Zaxis S DPS = 21.02
| Zaxis M DPS = 6.29
| Zaxis L DPS = 2.37
# pps_smg.rgd (CS PPS)
| Zaxis S DPS = 15.13
| Zaxis M DPS = 6.55
| Zaxis L DPS = 1.19
# pps_smg_r.rgd (Guard and Tank Rider PPS)
| Zaxis S DPS = 16.44
| Zaxis M DPS = 4.27
| Zaxis L DPS = 1.07
# ppsh_smg.rgd (Strelky PPSh)
| Zaxis S DPS = 16.36
| Zaxis M DPS = 4.33
| Zaxis L DPS = 1.7
# ppsh_smg_st.rgd (Sturmovie PPSh)
| Zaxis S DPS = 19.63
| Zaxis M DPS = 6.49
| Zaxis L DPS = 2.04
# con_rifle.rgd (Conscripts)
| Zaxis S DPS = 3.32
| Zaxis M DPS = 1.61
| Zaxis L DPS = 0.77
# ing_rifle.rgd (Ingenery)
| Zaxis S DPS = 2.58
| Zaxis M DPS = 1.25
| Zaxis L DPS = 0.6
# guard_mosin_nagant_rifle.rgd (Guards)
| Zaxis S DPS = 4.15
| Zaxis M DPS = 2.63
| Zaxis L DPS = 1.64
# mosin_nagant_rifle.rgd (Strelky/Sharpshooter)
| Zaxis S DPS = 4.15
| Zaxis M DPS = 2.63
| Zaxis L DPS = 1.64
# mosin_nagant_rifle_tank_hunter.rgd (THs)
| Zaxis S DPS = 2.77
| Zaxis M DPS = 1.75
| Zaxis L DPS = 0.82
# svt_rifle.rgd (Guard SVT)
| Zaxis S DPS = 8.48
| Zaxis M DPS = 5.18
| Zaxis L DPS = 2.69
# svt_rifle_n.rgd (NI SVT)
| Zaxis S DPS = 3.46
| Zaxis M DPS = 2.19
| Zaxis L DPS = 1.2
Picked the highlights. An important factor to mention is this is only raw stats and doesn't include the target tables. SMGs and LMGs will appear stronger here than they actually are (against infantry armour). They actually do 25% less than is shown here. Feel free to calculate this yourself. This is due to SMGs and LMGs being designed to scale against stronger armour types while not being too strong vs infantry armour (basic armour type).
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Thanks Dennis. From what I see Stormovie SMGs trump Strelky SMGs. NI/SH_Gds LMGs trump Strelky LMG. Regarding the rifle DPS: is this number per squad or per weapon?
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Per weapon. Remember that there are 5 PPShs in a Strelky squad compared to the 4 of the Sturmovie squad. Also, both their numbers are multiplied to 0.75 for damage so the difference is smaller again. This list also doesn't take into account moving accuracy which varies quite a bit with the weapons.
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So we see that Strelky and Guards have the same default mosin. Guard and NI get the same LMG. Guards get their LMG as a free upg with shock, (Scoot on the Scoot for Tank riders). The NI LMG costs 50 muni per and the Strelky LMG costs 75 muni per. How much Suppression do we obtain with one, two strelky LMGs compared with the NI/Guards LMG?
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So we see that Strelky and Guards have the same default mosin. Guard and NI get the same LMG. Guards get their LMG as a free upg with shock, (Scoot on the Scoot for Tank riders). The NI LMG costs 50 muni per and the Strelky LMG costs 75 muni per. How much Suppression do we obtain with one, two strelky LMGs compared with the NI/Guards LMG?
The LMGs shouldn't suppress, and the Guard LMG can be used on the move regardless of guard type