Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Chancellor on September 26, 2011, 06:12:34 AM
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(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4607/balanceconcerns.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/balanceconcerns.jpg/)
Zerstorer is cockblocking Snug and I from the balance team, so I cannot see the current balance changes for the next patch. I will post all of Sublime's balance concerns for 1.510 here instead. I will update this original post as new concerns arise as I play.
If you decide to post here, please READ THE WHOLE THING and think over what you are going to write, especially if you are a newbie player. I don't want to see some irrelevant compstomp comments. When you post, please quote the specific balance concern you are going to address or reply to.
FACTION BALANCE:
Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.
Reasoning: Although they lose more men, the PE player needs to kill 3-4 conscripts per every lost PG to win the manpower war, and this is not happening at all. If USSR decides to get a 4th conscript, PE will lose map control very quickly. Like USA, Soviets also cap faster than PGs, and the tank hunters that come later actually add to the rifle fire, making the pressure on the PGs too much to handle.
Solution: There needs to be some sort of slight nerf to CS, conscript, and TH rifles versus PGs.
Concern 2) In 2v2 early game, dual Soviets are at a severe disadvantage to both Wehr and PE.
Reasoning Versus dual Wehr, multiple MGs is guaranteed to lock down the high fuel, no matter how many conscripts come. Even if you flank, it will not be enough, since MGs change directions, and any player worth their salt will have volks guarding. Versus dual PE, PG spam just dominates the conscripts. I know I just said PGs were underpowered versus CS and conscripts in 1v1, but apparently in 2v2 where there are large numbers of the squads, this is how it is. In 2v2s, dual USA is valid because one player goes riflemen, while another can go WSC for snipers and MGs. Soviets do not have this.
Solution: Make both barracks and the support center cost fuel, but also give the Soviets starting fuel, but only enough to build either the barracks or the support center. Make the sniper and mortar available right after the support center is built (no upgrade needed). Put the TH and AT gun together and make them cost an "Anti-tank Upgrade" that costs 2x the current cost of one of the support upgrades, and also make it reduce conscript reenforce cost by 4.
Concern 3) The KV2 is somewhat overpowered.
Reasoning: This is supposed to be an anti-blobbing tank like the StuH, so I understand it is supposed to do major damage to blobs. However, it even does major damage to individual squads that aren't even blobbed together. It 1-hit killed an entire volks squad once. It is also very immune to panzershrecks, which I can kind of understand, since its an anti-infantry tool. However it is also very resilient to PAK rounds too. With such a strong gun and strong armor, its too much IMO.
Solution: Make its gun equal to the StuH's, OR make its armor more vulnerable to panzershrecks and PAK shots.
Concern 4) Katyushas are slightly too cost-efficient.
Reasoning: IIRC katyushas cost roughly 1/2 the manpower of a callipope. The manpower price of the katyushas were based off of the number of rockets each shot. However, katyushas have much higher damage per rocket and also less scatter. Admittedly, katyushas have less armor and health and range than a callipope, but a good player will protect them well anyways, so that disadvantage is mainly negated.
Solution: Make the katyusha's manpower price in between 1/2 and 3/4 of a callipope's.
Concern 5) Tank Riders should be vulnerable to small arms fire.
Reasoning: They are currently as bad as kangaroos: 4 men shooting out and are invulnerable when they are on the vehicle. Tank riders are more expensive than kangaroos, but they also come with guards, and the vehicle has a 76mm cannon attached to it.
Solution: Make the riding guards vulnerable to small arms fire.
Concern 6) Soviet snipers shoot too fast in respect to the other faction snipers.
Reasoning: USA snipers shoot slightly slower than Wehr snipers, since USA has more men per squad and have generally lower reenforce cost per man than Axis squads. The USSR sniper currently shoots as fast as the USA sniper but the USSR has even more men per squad and generally even lower reenforce cost per man.
Solution: Make the USSR sniper shoot 30% slower than the USA sniper, but let it shoot faster by 15% at vet 1, and another 15% at vet 2, in addition to its current vet bonuses.
Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.
Reasoning: They cost more than a single gren squad, so I understand if they can beat a vet 0 gren squad. But even at vet 3, grens will still handily lose to partisans. PGs also get pushed around.
Solution: Please check the combat power of the partisans.
Finally, to end this post, I would like to thank my friends at the balance team: GodlikeDennis, Killar, CranialWizard, and of course, the Sublime-in-training Apeman. :) I feel the current balance team has totally turned this mod around under GodlikeDennis's leadership, and has moved EF one giant step forward into a credible and competitive mod. This post is in no way meant to insult the balance team's efforts; only to point out minor balance problems that were probably unintended or missed. Thank you for reading.
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well, I don't enjoy playing against unbalanced enemies.... so I guess you're right, Yauz. The fact is that most people don't feel the difference so hard ( or it's just me?), so they don't see it. Balance team made a huge progress in 1.5, however some things stilll need fixing.
+1 for fuel cost of Support Barracks. Only this, Kampkraft centre, Soviet Barracks and bloody armoury don't need fuel to build.
And moderators, don't lock this thread please. Some serious concerns are debated here.
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Zerstorer is cockblocking Snug and I from the balance team, so I cannot see the current balance changes for the next patch. I will post all of Sublime's balance concerns for 1.510 here instead.
Whaaaat? Sungz too? I know you and Z had some personal differences but i didn´t know about Snugz :(
Because these issues you point out belong to internal discussion.
Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.
Thats because Conscripts have a sqaud health of 295 but PE grens only 165 (3 men). In addition Conscripts will keep their firepower until they loose more than 5 men while the dps of grens instantly drops when they loose only 1 man.
I would say more about it but its not meant for official eyes :\
Concern 2) In 2v2 early game, dual Soviets are at a severe disadvantage to both Wehr and PE.
Dammit can´t write here but would have much to say about it.
Soviets have a disadvantage a few minutes in the game because of the 35 fuel they need to get better weapons thats true.
So you suggest to skip the 35 fuel but make a price for the whole building like wehr has. Adding starting fuel costs i suggested too but for anpther reason.
Its a good idea and i will follow it :)
Concern 3) The KV2 is somewhat overpowered.
KV2 was again toned down. Its meant to be more powerful than Stuh. It costs more too.
Paks and schrecks are the worst enemys for this thing already. It has churchill armour and nearly every pak shot penetrates. A gren sqaud shooting from the rear and a pak from the front and this thing is gone. However we can adjust the Health always.
Concern 4) Katyushas are slightly too cost-efficient.
Already in discussion
Concern 5) Tank Riders should be vulnerable to small arms fire.
Thats the problem. They use the PE HT sitting. Means its like they sit in a HT and can be sniped, damaged by explosions but can´t hurt by small arms fire. I dunno if its possible to realize this.
Concern 6) Soviet snipers shoot too fast in respect to the other faction snipers.
Interestingly The soviet sniper minimum cooldown is lower with 1 point than US ones but all other stats are the same lol. We will look into that.
Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.
Partis have 2 PPSH and one MP40 and 1 Mosin and 1 Kar98. What makes them so powerful are the SMG´s. Grens should fight them from the distance where they have the advantage (4kar98 > 2 rifles)
However i understand that it isn´t always possible because partis come from the back and strike mostly from uncloaking.
We will have a look into that.
Regards
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Just out of curiousity can concern # 5 be changed in any way or is it more of a tech issue :P
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Of course I agree with point #1(actually I wouldn't adjust CS against pgs though, since it can be focus fired quite nicely also, and slowed for the kill[by the way, is this going to change to reflect the retail ability?]), and katyushas piss me off to no end, for their cost and effectiveness. I just think the prop war doctrine dominates right now, and its mostly because of these munitions free artillery pieces, of which there will be at least 2 out, impossible to get to without wading through tank hunters, and keeping all the munitions free to start dropping the a-bombs of GOW every time the ability becomes available. Kats also just hammer tanks. even the jagtiger gets mauled by these rockets, which just keep coming.
I haven't played any 2v2's. If there is a problem, i'm not sure of the solution. How much fuel would it take to get out any vehicle deterrent under this plan? Seems like a long road to anything that could effectively counter an ac, unless I'm misunderstanding the cost you're proposing. I also just like the way the support units are split up right now.
I do think that the major should be unlocked whether the barracks or the support building are built though, to allow for at least theoretical(if not practical) flexibility, but yeah, that won't do anything to address the problem you're asserting.
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@ KV2
I think it should be switched with street fighting, that way it comes out later and its power is worth the cost
@yauz, also im kinda curiopus on your opinion on the OBR field gun, because it seems that half the people like it while others say its useless
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@ KV2
I think it should be switched with street fighting, that way it comes out later and its power is worth the cost
+++ thats what i suggested too.... KV2 comes too early imo... as its so heavy armored, its a real challenge to conter it in that phase of game...
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@ KV2
I think it should be switched with street fighting, that way it comes out later and its power is worth the cost
@yauz, also im kinda curiopus on your opinion on the OBR field gun, because it seems that half the people like it while others say its useless
The KV being switched with Street Fighting is a good idea. However, if that happens, Street Fighting will come earlier, and I think the Sturmovies should only be allowed 1 flamerthrower instead of two. Putting two flamethrowers on assault infantry was too much, even when Street Fighting was the last ability on the doctrine. Its like giving KCH two flamethrowers lol
As for the OBR, it really depends on who likes it and who thinks its useless. A bad player who doesn't play their units right might start thinking their units are useless for example. Personally I think OBR is fine versus Wehr, but its OP versus PE.
Why? Because the OBR gun is specifically strong against infantry and light vehicles. Wehr's infantry are cheaper per man, so when an OBR kills a grenadier, its only 37 reenforce cost, plus the body might be recovered by a medic. Against PE, its 45 manpower down the drain, guaranteed. As for light vehicles, Wehr doesn't really have much in terms of light vehicles. There's the halftrack, but it is not central to T2 play. The Puma is central to T3 play, but the StuG from the same building can be used to kill the OBR. PE on the other hand, lives and dies by their light vehicles. The OBR pretty much negates all of their vehicles. The only thing PE has that can kill the OBR are shrecks, which are sometimes not teched to, dual Panthers, which are extremely late game and mostly a luxury in 1v1s, and Mortar HT, which takes an extremely long time to get the job done, but by then Tank Hunters or PTDRs are most likely to chase it away.
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I haven't tried it yet but can the 76mm gun move or is it stationary? If its such a problem maybe some nerfing is in order :P. Im just saying this due to what Yauz said.
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I haven't tried it yet but can the 76mm gun move or is it stationary? If its such a problem maybe some nerfing is in order :P. Im just saying this due to what Yauz said.
Its a stationary but it has pretty long range. Its also an emplacement.
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If its like the 105 howitzer then I can see how it may be problematic on small maps. It will just keep firing and blow shit up :P
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However, if that happens, Street Fighting will come earlier, and I think the Sturmovies should only be allowed 1 flamerthrower instead of two. Putting two flamethrowers on assault infantry was too much, even when Street Fighting was the last ability on the doctrine. Its like giving KCH two flamethrowers lol
double flames are a unique doc ability, like storms with blitz-doc can get double schrecks/stg44 or pe-grens get double-schreck when tank-doc is chosen (what comes also very late by CP btw)... i dont see there any problem... of course double flames are very strong, and they should be imo, like storms are very strong vs tanks/inf too (depends on what weopons are given - stg/schreck)...
Personally I think OBR is fine versus Wehr, but its OP versus PE.
i agree that its very powerfull vs pe, even maybe OP... a brit 40mm bofors is devastating against light/medium pe vehicles too, but its not that hard to conter, since the range of 40mm is limited... the only prob for contering OBR as pe is the range, which is enormous... 17pounder has enormous range too (not that much like OBR) but is only usefull against heavy tanks and very bad against inf. btw: before ppl are saying "u cant compare 40mm-bofors with OBR" - yes i know, just wanted to show the problem of OBRs range
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I think I have an idea on how to make Tank riders damageable when riding. Unless a solution is already out :P.
You know when a tank or AC shoots a buildng for a while a big gapping hole in the window appears, leaving soldiers more vunerable to gunfire. Maybe we could use the stats of a building w/o windows or missing wall for the T-34. Or would this not work ???. Im not tech savy ;).
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I think I have an idea on how to make Tank riders damageable when riding. Unless a solution is already out :P.
Thx but a solution is already worked on.
These points of concerns should be internal not public. A shame that you got kicked.
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I agree on the Partisans
i have just played a 1v1 vs a friend (we are pretty even) and my 2 partisan squads fucked up 2 vet 3 grens with one DP-28 each (he took them from my dead strelkys) I charged their yellow cover....
I think urban doc in general is pretty near-OP
sturmovie engeniries just rape EVERYTHING, they burn 3 squads in like 5 secs.
PE is just at a huge disadvantage vs soviets atm
i am not as good as yauz so i cant make awesome suggestions
but i am with him on most points!
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These points of concerns should be internal not public. A shame that you got kicked.
I didn't get kicked. I voluntarily left because there were no effective changes being made to the EF balance under Zerstorer's fail leadership. It was pointless to stay and talk to a brick wall. Later people like Snug were ousted, and Sublime were called Axis fanboys. Ironically, RedGuard came into the team around the same time.
Then, when GodlikeDennis took over the balance we wanted to rejoin the balance team, but then Zerst uses his last breath to permanently cockblock us. Reasons cited were from his own personal vendetta against us and a "no second chances" policy. Ironically, RedGuard quit the balance team once and was able to rejoin without a problem.
This section IS named the Balance Discussion, so I don't see why anything related to balance shouldn't be allowed to be disclosed here, even if it is "public".
@ donthateme on street fighting only giving Sturmovies 1 flamethrower per squad if the ability is moved up the tree, I stand by my word. As for the reasoning, you might be forgetting that 2 flamethrowers are much stronger than 2 StG44s, and also that the Sturmovies already come with PPSHs too. Loading too much firepower on a squad makes it OP.
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You can get 1 flamer without Streetfighting? Whats the point of streetfighting if it dosn't give you something special?
The extra flamer is all it does, without that it does... Absolutely nothing. Whats the point then? Remove it :P
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The extra flamer is all it does, without that it does... Absolutely nothing. Whats the point then? Remove it :P
Thats the reason why i said better internally.
Street fighting gives you:
- 2 flamer upgrade to sturms
- +10HP for engis
- Incendiary barrage for heavy mortars
- Phosphor nade for Strelky
- and one more that im surely forgot
@ Yauz
I didn´t mean you got kicked but Snug
@ Street fighting
Double flamers will stay because its a design feature of the doc and it is adjusted cost wise for the balance already.
Wish was to swap KV2 and street fighting because the KV2 alone deals more damage after 5CP than the street fighting ability .
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Yes, people like Monos obviously didn't read the original post and just type dog shit without thinking. But this is all I have access to, and I'm rolling with that I've got.
For Sturmovies:
The problem is the squad is already strong and the flamethrower is pretty much the strongest infantry weapon in the game. Even vet 3 flamer pios have more vulnerabilities than flamer sturmovies, such as mines and snipers. If you guys are so confident in keeping it 2 flamers, I'll end it with that, but if this turns out to be OP later, don't say I didn't warn you guys. I can already foresee 2-3 of these flamer squads making the whole Wehr T2 and all PGs obsolete.
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I've read this whole thing days ago. I replied to your "remove dual flamer" Post only!
Streetfighting before KV2 cool, remove flamers making it useless again.. Thats not soo cool.
Maby Zerstorer rallyed against you because you write offensive stuff at all who shares their opinion that ain't in your "Pro-Dudes" list.
I can already foresee 2-3 of these flamer squads making the whole Wehr T2 and all PGs obsolete.
Maby. But can't you just stay out of cover. If it's a huge blob with other infantry too.. Can't a T3 nebelwerfer or mortars just own the whole Blob?
but if this turns out to be OP later, don't say I didn't warn you guys.
Reducing the CP might make another change needed, time will tell :)
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I've read this whole thing days ago. I replied to your "remove dual flamer" Post only!
Streetfighting before KV2 cool, remove flamers making it useless again.. Thats not soo cool.
Maby Zerstorer rallyed against you because you write offensive stuff at all who shares their opinion that ain't in your "Pro-Dudes" list.
Yes, I say whatever the fuck I want to say, to whoever I want to say it to. Especially noobs talking about balance without knowing exactly what they are referring to. First of all, street fighting has other benefits other than dual flamers. Second, IIRC, you cannot get even a single flamer on sturmovies without street fighting.
If you have a problem with what I have to say, go cry about me all you want with Zerst and get the fuck out of my face.
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Second, IIRC, you cannot get even a single flamer on sturmovies without street fighting.
When did that hotfix come out? Last i checked you only need Sturmovies upgrade to get flamer.
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IIRC the normal ingenerie can get a single flamer after the sturmovie upgrade, but not the sturmovies themselves. BTW, sorry for being so harsh. Its like 3am here and I'm still crunching numbers studying for my accounting exam lol... Just a bad time of the day for me heheh :-[
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IIRC the normal ingenerie can get a single flamer after the sturmovie upgrade, but not the sturmovies themselves. BTW, sorry for being so harsh. Its like 3am here and I'm still crunching numbers studying for my accounting exam lol... Just a bad time of the day for me heheh :-[
Maby your right.. I'm in game testing.
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Especially noobs talking about balance without knowing exactly what they are referring to.
well yauz, thats the reason balance issuses shouldnt be discussed in public... i am not reffering to someone special, its just the problem, ppl talking about balance issues/concerns who dont have a clue how this game is played.. tough its nice to see that u said what u think about balance, but a public discussion about that will be not a good idea i think... maybe better to discuss this by PM..
@ double flamers: imo stormtroppers with double stg44 are way better than double flamers (of course it depends on situation), since they can cloak themselfes and get close to the enemy without even taking damage...
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You were right about the Sturminginery not having flamers as upgrade available. :-X
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BTW what happens to the mine sweeper when 2 flamers are purchased ??? Does it get replaced or what? IMHO I still think regular SU engineers should get a minesweeper :-\
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Had your friend had an MG, that wouldnt have happened. He could (should) have thrown a grenade in your path or backed away into some more firepower, since its common knowledge that Guards and Partisans rape Grenadiers.
Sturmovie are being addressed, yes? But at this point yes, they are gloriously OP for their armor, HP, and dual flamers with urban doc. Keep an MG AND puma in the back and you should be good to go. Hell, even a halftrack is great against units like that. Ofc, watch out for tank hunters.
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BTW what happens to the mine sweeper when 2 flamers are purchased ??? Does it get replaced or what? IMHO I still think regular SU engineers should get a minesweeper :-\
DP-28? I remember that in 1.3 and 1.4 version, sturmovie gets DP-28 instead of minesweeper, of course when you upgrade them with double flames. I don't know how is in 1.5.
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Nope, was reported and fixed :).
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Nope, was reported and fixed :).
So what are sturm engineers currently armed with ???. Im confuzled :P
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BTW what happens to the mine sweeper when 2 flamers are purchased ??? Does it get replaced or what? IMHO I still think regular SU engineers should get a minesweeper :-\
DP-28? I remember that in 1.3 and 1.4 version, sturmovie gets DP-28 instead of minesweeper, of course when you upgrade them with double flames. I don't know how is in 1.5.
Nope, was reported and fixed :).
Confused in what part ??? The equipment of Sturmovies is three PPSH-41 and one minesweeper as usual and you can see it ingame.
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Oh ok :P. Dzierzan's post confused me. My bad :-[ Can you remind me again why SU engineer cant use minesweeper :P
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Eh... is "design decision" a valid answer? :P
I think would be redundant. But perhaps something can be done.
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Can you remind me again why SU engineer cant use minesweeper :P
Because conscripts want to have a chance to show their devotion to their motherland.
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Yauz, as i remembered corretly we played against each other on moscow map.
as to your remarks regarding RU V PE, as i remember in game we were almost even in the beginning, and then jou brought out your mortar truck. your effective use of the damn thing started to push me back and i couldn't capture any territory.
i think as the the game stands it is totally fair... the reasoning:
1. building cost for mortar truck is 20 fuel (i think since not big on pe)
2. mortar truck cost is 40 fuel.
thus 60 fuel total
3. i personally don't use tank hunter- which to make playable cost 35 fuel. and obviously effective use with mortar truck with a few pe squads will destroy any attempt to destroy the mortar truck. (with its speed it can just charge back to its base)
4. for me the most effective way to make the mortar truck obsolete is to build T70's. which cost 145 fuel just to build the first one!
(55 fuel tank hall + 55 fuel light tank upgrade + 35 fuel for the actual tank)
so for me if the pe player can get 2 mortar truck's on early to choke all the fuel points the came is basically over....
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3. i personally don't use tank hunter
biggest mistake vs pe is that one.. i made it myself a few times..tank hunters are the best way to deal vs pe, they just rip apart theire light vehicles ;)
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@neox88: I'm sorry but did you play against Yauz's PE as Soviet? Talking easier than doing.
When I played with Killar, I had to make a painful choice, use conscripts or spend precious amu and fuel to detect mines, in the end conscripts are chosen :(
So should the ingernery have earlier mine detectors?
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@stavka88
@neox88 is right, TH would helped him more.
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Yauz, as i remembered corretly we played against each other on moscow map.
What??? When was this? I don't think we ever played, mate. Whats your in-game name? Mine is SublimeYauz and only SublimeYauz. I don't recall having played a PvP game on Moscow since patch 1.31... I also don't see what the mortar halftrack has to do with anything mentioned in my balance concerns / proposed solutions.
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I think it was part of his arguement that Soviet dont need nerf :P.
If Im correct (yes I read the whole thing :P) he argues that SU vs PE is a fair fight if you use your MHT correctly to counter SU. He also says that you can use T-70 to counter a MHT. But you can use a Marder to silence it and it cost a significant amount of fuel to get to :P
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Yea, we played... i think your exams are making you suffer of short term memory :) in-game name: aBandit, you hosted a map and i suggested you to change it to moscow, which you did. It was like 3 or 4 days ago.
your claims that conscripts over power pe in 1v1 is not completely valid (its what i think), all you have to do is hold them(conscripts) in check for a while until you get MHT. For we all know what happens when a mortar round explodes next to them = pink mist
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Yea, we played... i think your exams are making you suffer of short term memory :)
haha perhaps you're right...they've been going on non-stop for the last 2 weeks...I've been cooped up in my damn house studying lately, but its finally over.
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i know what you mean, i study Law and its basically hours on end sitting in a chair developing back spasms...
we'll have that rematch!
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@neox88: I'm sorry but did you play against Yauz's PE as Soviet? Talking easier than doing.
yes i did actually, he was pe and i was soviet, last week ago, irc. and that is why i m saying how much important are tank hunters vs pe. i made a mistake, i was too slow, then he brought in light vehicles, and he torn apart my conscripts and strelkys, and Yauz won, fair and square. :-\ but man i m glad that he won, cause i learned a lot from that defeat.. i m a much better player since then :)
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Can you remind me again why SU engineer cant use minesweeper :P
Because conscripts want to have a chance to show their devotion to their motherland.
i think it is good that way
mines are one of the last things able to stop sturmovie flamer squads
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Can you remind me again why SU engineer cant use minesweeper :P
Because conscripts want to have a chance to show their devotion to their motherland.
i think it is good that way
mines are one of the last things able to stop sturmovie flamer squads
What about snipers :P?
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Whats the problem with snipers?
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Whats the problem with snipers?
Can a sniper take out an Assault SU engineer or does it take 2 shots. Never tried it :P
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one shot
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(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4607/balanceconcerns.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/balanceconcerns.jpg/)
FACTION BALANCE:
Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.
Reasoning: Although they lose more men, the PE player needs to kill 3-4 conscripts per every lost PG to win the manpower war, and this is not happening at all. If USSR decides to get a 4th conscript, PE will lose map control very quickly. Like USA, Soviets also cap faster than PGs, and the tank hunters that come later actually add to the rifle fire, making the pressure on the PGs too much to handle.
Solution: There needs to be some sort of slight nerf to CS, conscript, and TH rifles versus PGs.
yauz is right about this one, size squad of conscripts or theire health should be nerfed a bit. conscripts shuldnt be even matched vs PGs
Post Merge: October 01, 2011, 02:54:56 PM
(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4607/balanceconcerns.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/balanceconcerns.jpg/)
Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.
this is also true, they are a bit too strong atm and very hard to kill and keep distance from them..
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Yeah Neox and I had a nice game yesterday, he was overwhelmed by Partisans, his PGs were wrecked at CQB, but he didn't quite keep them at proper range nor in cover.
They are quite overpowered, but does anyone have their current Vet stat tables, they get Vet 1 from a single dead (3 man) PG squad IIRC, and i had a few of them running around with Vet yesterday and I'm interested in seeing what bonuses Vet offers.
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Partisans
6 0.85 rec dmg
12 1.2 acc
18 1.2 dmg
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Just out of curiosity, are most (or even all) of these concerns Yauz brought up being addressed already? If so then I don't really see a reason why this thread should stay open for TOO long :P. We(the community) have basically addressed every single problem.
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Some were addressed by the balance team before this thread was even started. Others have been considered since this thread began and we have taken action (not necessarily those proposed by Yauz).
At the very least, this thread proves why Yau belongs on the team again since most of the issues identified were also identified and discussed by our balance team independently.
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I thought Yauz said he(or she, I honestly don't know the gender of anyone in EF) left the balance team voluntary :P?
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I thought Yauz said he(or she, I honestly don't know the gender of anyone in EF) left the balance team voluntary :P?
Because of personality clashes with other people...whom won't be named but Yauz will tell you.
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Zerstörer?
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OT: BTW what armor does Partisans have? :P. Im kinda curious since you guys say they destroy Grenadiers :P
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This was due to their weapons that had incorrect long range stats. These have been corrected while short range was not affected much.
They have airborne, one of the weaker armour types.
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Just out of curiosity, are most (or even all) of these concerns Yauz brought up being addressed already? If so then I don't really see a reason why this thread should stay open for TOO long :P. We(the community) have basically addressed every single problem.
No. If I see other problems arise, I will add on to the original post. Again, please read. If you don't like this thread, just don't feed it by posting here.
And about Zerst, it wasn't just a personality clash. If for example, IF I personally didn't like Dennis (don't get me wrong, I do), but he was doing a great job leading the balance (which he is), and things were actually being changed and acted upon, I wouldn't leave; I would continue to raise inputs in the balance team.
I mainly left because there was absolutely NOTHING effective being done under Zerst. It was pointless to stay. It took thesis papers to get a nerf to Kats before, when they came at 3 CP. And these nerfs were mainly useless...for example, the main problem was that the Kats came too early, but instead Zerst just raises the cost by 100 and keeps them at 3 CP... Many things like the Sturmovie spam from previous patches were outright ignored. In addition Sublime gets called fanboys...
Finally, there's something to be said about credibility. Dennis and I can 1v1, and he can go toe to toe with me, and come out on top 60% of the time. As for Zerst, hell I don't think he even plays the mod lol...and if he actually did, I can bet you he's a major noob. And a noob leading the balance equals epic fail, as you can see with all the previous patches.
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Partisans
6 0.85 rec dmg
12 1.2 acc
18 1.2 dmg
Ehh, not so good (which isn't a bad thing in this case) I guess. Airborne has less received accuracy while on the move IIRC, making them good as intern assault troops before the RBS or Guards come by and say hi, which I believe will be their true calling in the next patch, harassment/assault troops. Be nice if they could get all SMGs through Vet......
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Show Partisans Are losing there long range, but not there short range?
Not complaining, like the idea, but I need to know for the future.
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Again, please read. If you don't like this thread, just don't feed it by posting here.
Its not that I don't like it :P. I just feel there's no point in restating things that will already be fixed. But I see your point ;)
I guess partisians will now be like Volks :P
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I guess partisans will now be like Volks :P
Na not like Volks more live weaker Storms. The Volks MP40s are horrid on the move IIRC, and are much better fired from cover.
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sadness :'( can i still pop randomly at of a building to destroy an mg holding up my inf advancing?
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Since there's some confusion here and the change is basically final (not necessarily the only change to partisans) I'll say exactly what happened. The partisans have an assortment of weapons; 1volk MP40, 2 Strelky PPShs, 1 strelky mosin, 1 gren K98. Since both the strelky mosin and gren K98 are very powerful long range weapons, I replaced them with weaker ones, the conscript mosin and the PG K98 respectively. The conscript rifle is weaker at all ranges than the strelky mosin, which reduces effectiveness however the PG K98 may actually be better up close than the gren K98 but still weaker at long range and not as good vs troops in cover. Nerfed in this way, only their long range should have a noticeable performance drop while their short range damage should remain strong.
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hands up for the work on this one m8, nice list!!
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Welcome back Snugz :). I don't see a reason to close this topic, until the new patch is out this can be helpful.
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(http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/4607/balanceconcerns.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/balanceconcerns.jpg/)
Zerstorer is cockblocking Snug and I from the balance team, so I cannot see the current balance changes for the next patch. I will post all of Sublime's balance concerns for 1.510 here instead. I will update this original post as new concerns arise as I play.
If you decide to post here, please READ THE WHOLE THING and think over what you are going to write, especially if you are a newbie player. I don't want to see some irrelevant compstomp comments. When you post, please quote the specific balance concern you are going to address or reply to.
FACTION BALANCE:
Concern 1) In 1v1, early Soviet 1 CS, 3 Conscripts mix is stronger than 4 PG, and is OP against PE.
Reasoning: Although they lose more men, the PE player needs to kill 3-4 conscripts per every lost PG to win the manpower war, and this is not happening at all. If USSR decides to get a 4th conscript, PE will lose map control very quickly. Like USA, Soviets also cap faster than PGs, and the tank hunters that come later actually add to the rifle fire, making the pressure on the PGs too much to handle.
Solution: There needs to be some sort of slight nerf to CS, conscript, and TH rifles versus PGs.
Concern 2) In 2v2 early game, dual Soviets are at a severe disadvantage to both Wehr and PE.
Reasoning Versus dual Wehr, multiple MGs is guaranteed to lock down the high fuel, no matter how many conscripts come. Even if you flank, it will not be enough, since MGs change directions, and any player worth their salt will have volks guarding. Versus dual PE, PG spam just dominates the conscripts. I know I just said PGs were underpowered versus CS and conscripts in 1v1, but apparently in 2v2 where there are large numbers of the squads, this is how it is. In 2v2s, dual USA is valid because one player goes riflemen, while another can go WSC for snipers and MGs. Soviets do not have this.
Solution: Make both barracks and the support center cost fuel, but also give the Soviets starting fuel, but only enough to build either the barracks or the support center. Make the sniper and mortar available right after the support center is built (no upgrade needed). Put the TH and AT gun together and make them cost an "Anti-tank Upgrade" that costs 2x the current cost of one of the support upgrades, and also make it reduce conscript reenforce cost by 4.
Concern 3) The KV2 is somewhat overpowered.
Reasoning: This is supposed to be an anti-blobbing tank like the StuH, so I understand it is supposed to do major damage to blobs. However, it even does major damage to individual squads that aren't even blobbed together. It 1-hit killed an entire volks squad once. It is also very immune to panzershrecks, which I can kind of understand, since its an anti-infantry tool. However it is also very resilient to PAK rounds too. With such a strong gun and strong armor, its too much IMO.
Solution: Make its gun equal to the StuH's, OR make its armor more vulnerable to panzershrecks and PAK shots.
Concern 4) Katyushas are slightly too cost-efficient.
Reasoning: IIRC katyushas cost roughly 1/2 the manpower of a callipope. The manpower price of the katyushas were based off of the number of rockets each shot. However, katyushas have much higher damage per rocket and also less scatter. Admittedly, katyushas have less armor and health and range than a callipope, but a good player will protect them well anyways, so that disadvantage is mainly negated.
Solution: Make the katyusha's manpower price in between 1/2 and 3/4 of a callipope's.
Concern 5) Tank Riders should be vulnerable to small arms fire.
Reasoning: They are currently as bad as kangaroos: 4 men shooting out and are invulnerable when they are on the vehicle. Tank riders are more expensive than kangaroos, but they also come with guards, and the vehicle has a 76mm cannon attached to it.
Solution: Make the riding guards vulnerable to small arms fire.
Concern 6) Soviet snipers shoot too fast in respect to the other faction snipers.
Reasoning: USA snipers shoot slightly slower than Wehr snipers, since USA has more men per squad and have generally lower reenforce cost per man than Axis squads. The USSR sniper currently shoots as fast as the USA sniper but the USSR has even more men per squad and generally even lower reenforce cost per man.
Solution: Make the USSR sniper shoot 30% slower than the USA sniper, but let it shoot faster by 15% at vet 1, and another 15% at vet 2, in addition to its current vet bonuses.
Concern 7) Partisans are currently slightly too strong.
Reasoning: They cost more than a single gren squad, so I understand if they can beat a vet 0 gren squad. But even at vet 3, grens will still handily lose to partisans. PGs also get pushed around.
Solution: Please check the combat power of the partisans.
Finally, to end this post, I would like to thank my friends at the balance team: GodlikeDennis, Killar, CranialWizard, and of course, the Sublime-in-training Apeman. :) I feel the current balance team has totally turned this mod around under GodlikeDennis's leadership, and has moved EF one giant step forward into a credible and competitive mod. This post is in no way meant to insult the balance team's efforts; only to point out minor balance problems that were probably unintended or missed. Thank you for reading.
I haven't been on for a while so its good to be back ^^
OK now 1) Would having 4 scout cars be a more visable option to stopping this? I've seen it work vs riflemen shouldn't it work vs conscripts and CS?
2) I agree with this, though If you changed it wouldn't it change the 1v1 balance?
3) I think of the KV 2 as an AVRE, since churchills show moderate resilience to Paks why not the KV 2? Making it a Stug H would be a joke (since you can just use SU 122 for that.) Why not add a munition cost to the call in?
4) Maybe, I wont comment on this... yet
5) I feel Tank guards are weaker than Guards, I feel they should be snipable (like the Bren carrier) but not to small arms fire.
6) Yeah, that makes sense. Also annoying is it only gives 3 xp when it dies instead of 9 xp to the player who lost it. Not sure if the enemy recieves less xp either but that should also be changed.
7) Leave it to GLD...
OK Im done, Good to see everyone is still here ^^
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all of these 7 listed points are already reworked/balanced in current beta version...
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Speaking of which. When will the next patch come out :P? Can we expect it by thanksgiving (Nov. 24 or 25 IIRC :-\)
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The balance team might be able to finish our changes by then but release will depend on the availability of the lead devs who are very busy with RL atm.
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I would like to apologise in advance because most of the following focusses on thing that either puzzle, irritate or simple frustrate me, while there's been many many good changes as well. There's also most likely elements in my criticism that might balance the gameplay between different factions better and just appear odd or unreasonable to me ("pedantic realism"? hehe). In addition, I haven't been playing for quite a while between now and an wayyy old version, so many changes that probably went gradually appear abrupt to me. I'd like to express my fondness and appreciation in general for the whole EF Mod. You rock! - oh, and excuse me for pouring this into Yauz' thread - for some reason, I cannot create a new topic (nor reply-reply normally) because all my browsers believe the forum server is misconfigured, when I try to do so.
Now for the rant, thoughts, criticism:::
The Nashorn is a nifty addition/Flak replacement and the time needed to move/set-up seems fair. Great concept for a new kind of unit as mobile Flak8, but the rate at which a heavy MG squad destroys a Nashorn is ridiculous - a single HMG unit afflicts more damage/time to it than a lucky Sherman, whihc came close enough to the Nashorn to driving around it a few times. It is supposed to have a the chassis of a Panzer IV and not a motorcycles, right?
The riflemens anti-vehicle bombs do way too much damage on heavy armored cars. In addition, the car gets hit with the sticky bomb even when moving past the soldiers at full +accelerated speed, is often immobilized instantly and half way destroyed, which is way too much of an effect - the damage is basically the same to a scout car, which seems about fair on this one - even though it is quite frustrating to see an engine-damaged scout car (which has a mounted MG42) try to move away from a single squad of rookie riflemen+BAR while they take it apart, barely risking to lose one man out of six while the MG42 fires into their general direction without much of an effect. Something went wrong here with balancing, especially with the heavy armoured car vs riflemen. Scout cars MG42 has too little effect on infantry, the way I see it.
It also seems a little absurd that the vehicle needs to get repaired back to 100% in order for it's engine to work again/immobilization to be lifted. One would think that gaining back mobility has priority in an repair effort made in the field. But here, I can imagine it makes sense for balancing.
An American/Infantry Howitzer barrage aimed at a single civilian building with enemy troops in it is accurate enough as to noticeably damage the building (which looks awesome) but leaves the troops inside unharmed. That's a bit odd to look at.
At random, WM (Terror) Stormtroopers engage enemy troops when camouflaged, even though told to hold fire.
Why was the squad size of soviet shock guards decreased to 4? The way it feels to me from subjective gaming, it is way too likely now that a whole squad gets lost in one lucky hit from mortar/artillery/tiger.
I suspect they were simply too strong - especially with their slowdown (which i really miss... alot) - this made them particularly awesome to fetch enemy weaponry like panzerfaust/lmg42- which they now can no longer pick up at all after being upgraded with mid/short range weapons. I think this is sad.
Before they changed, i liked that they differed from banner strelky by walking combat-ready out of the garrison - without the need to upgrade them any further with a specialisation. On that note, Soviets have plenty of close range specialists already; the mid-range rifles seem the most sensible path.
Producing them requires three upgrades and ALL soviet base structures - isn't that enough? Why even more upgrades to make them work? The small squad size makes them quite disappointing - especially with them being unable to pick up even a single MG42/Panzerfaust. They are supposed to be the best russian infantry squad, afterall.
Why is it that soviet mortar teams can engage cloaked (and holding fire) snipers, even while there's no other sojviet unit around to spot/decloak the sniper for them?
It is very frustrating to witness soldiers getting "overrun" and killed by touching a barely moving enemy tank, running next to it, going faster than the tank with destroyed engine. I'm aware one could technically get crushed from a tank that is only moving very slowly - but at a certain pace and angle of soldier-to-tank, this looks like the soldiers deliberately commit suicide, not the tank killing them.
When i come to think of it - maybe a vehicle like the heavy armoured car should be able to kill infantry while running through them at full force - instead of "bouncing off" of the enemy infantry, what it is occasionally doing at the moment. This might even balance out that two squads of rifle men with sticky bombs have such an easy time disposing off the anti-infantry armoured car.
(AI controlled) tanks occasionally retreat by driving backwards, straight through another tank.
PIAT troops tend to damage/destroy the structure/emplacement they were just repairing because while firing at an approaching enemy vehicle, they miraculously hit what's right in front of them instead of what they are shooting at - even though the arch of the flying PIAT projectile suggests they can fire over an obstacle.
British Vickers MG emplacement efficiency against PE infantry is (suddenly?) ridiculously low - squads of Fallschirmjäger or with Panzerschreck or assault rifles can stroll towards it directly and they take it apart within seconds - the MG does little damage and rarely manages to suppress the enemy infantry even with them being bloody rookies.
The attack movement of british troops, both rifle squads and PIAT-sappers is sometimes rather weird - they walk very very closely to both enemy infantry and vehicles and hence do not fire PIAT or Bren. Especially in open field where there's no cover to direct them to instead of just aiming at the enemy forces, this behaviour is quite disturbing. - What I mark as a positive change is Rifle squads with the Bren upgrade receiving two Brens now, giving them decent to good effectiveness against both infantry and light vehicles. PIAT troops often take awfully long to aim/shoot - as if they'd be waiting for the enemy vehicle to begin moving again, just so they'll miss it.
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@Stinkwolf
Nashorn has Hummel's chassis. Just checked and has halftrack criticals(Hummel has the same) and these will be changed to Marder criticals instead.
The Stormtroopers bugged camo should be fixed for the next patch.
About Guards, they aren't supposed to replace Strelky as main infantry, that's why they got nerfed. Also they didn't need to have that huge squad size (previously 6 now 4). We took in consideration that they are late game troops, specialists to support your infantry or tanks and also sometimes is hard to find cover for big squads and that could make some difference in the outcome of a battle ^^.
Bren lmg upgrade has always granted two weapons per Infantry section (IIRC... unless it was bugged until now ^^).
Any AI mortar can target cloaked units not only soviets (that's a "feature" of CoH AI, it can foresee the enemy forces approaching :P).
About the vCoH feedback, that's just Relic stuff and we do not want to mess with it atm.
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That was alot of text to read through. you should try making it into list format so its easier 2 read :D Like this
-Example 1
-Example 2
-Example 3
Anyways the changes you have a concern about like the sticky bombs and the Brits not firing their weps on the move. Those are vCOH and devs don't like to touch those things :P
And Guards are more like KCH. They come late and requre alot since they are so powerful :P
Also Scout Cars are suppose to be like oversized Jeeps or Motorbikes. Dont expect them to destroy rifleman like the AC does
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Thank you for the behind-the-scenes insights, Blackbishop, especially about the "features" - i just never noticed this before. And also about the feedback in general, Fishhunterx - yeah, i just kept collecting notes for quite a while and puked them out in one shot.
Well, I figured that I was just spoiled from the shock guards former squad size - and hunting WM panzerschreck squads or PE Panzerjäger was just way too much fun with the suppression ability - so I miss it now. But I guess it makes sense for balancing - they were very very tough if not impossible to kill, even for KCH, who had to get really close to overpower them. And with a few Panzerschrecks, they turned into a tough-to-hit tank on twelve legs.