Company of Heroes: Eastern Front
Eastern Front Mod (Read-Only) => Balance Discussion => Topic started by: GodlikeDennis on May 29, 2011, 03:24:54 AM
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This thread is not for me to complain about GoW, or even to give my opinion. I want to gather community opinion on the new God of War since it's a huge part of this new patch. If you haven't used GoW in 1.4 don't comment.
The exact mechanics are that it is placed like the off map arty of the infantry doctrine (unusable in base sectors) and, after a couple second delay, fires around 15 shells that deal extremely heavy damage (1 shell deals about 2/3 the health of an Ostwind) that cover about a screenlength. For the next minute, small "aftershock" barrages of rockets and artillery fire on enemies moving through the affected area with rather bad accuracy. 150MU. 4min cooldown.
This is a very important issue since the balance team can't deal with all situations where it will be used. While we feel it's balanced for 1v1 we need everyone's opinion on how useful it is in as many situations as possible.
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It does fairly well in 2v2 in my opinion. I used it to ultimately destroy the enemy's forces building up near the left VP on Red Ball Express, wish I had a replay.
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GoW is pretty cool now.
But I think that the cost is too low. 150 muni are easily gathered by the end of the match, and while you cant use GoW in base sector, in most of the map you can use it near the very limit of the base sector, which is annoying because it destroy nearly everything near the HQ...
I havent noticed the "small aftershock barrages of rocket and artillery" though; for me after the main firing there was nothing else.
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The aftershocks only fire if an enemy moves through the affected zone, like sector arty.
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All those "OMG it shoots the base-sector" posts are annoying and wrong - all axis "kill area" abilities (except sector artillery) do the same. Those damn V-1 rockets, or the mortar barrages. So why shouldn't GoW scratch a bit of a base sector? Just stop building all your stuff close to the border of that sector.
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All those "OMG it shoots the base-sector" posts are annoying and wrong - all axis "kill area" abilities (except sector artillery) do the same. Those damn V-1 rockets, or the mortar barrages. So why shouldn't GoW scratch a bit of a base sector? Just stop building all your stuff close to the border of that sector.
GoW is very (I mean VERY) powerful, its not comparable to any axis doctrinal arty. And it come kinda fast after the smoke; btw I think that the V1 cant destroy a base building, just damage it badly (not sure though).
But you're right that one shouldnt build on borders.
The aftershocks only fire if an enemy moves through the affected zone, like sector arty.
Kinda cool! Thanks for the info; when I used it, I obliterated everyone in the sector so... ;D
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My question is how does this compare to the american bombing run for price and effectiveness? Granted the American equivolent is considered underpowered,
but it's what, 250 munitions?(or 200, can't remember) drops smoke(apparently according to a post upthread so does gow, so maybe I just missed it) with the appropriate delay, has a very tight pattern(but these bombs do much more damage?) and doesn't have any after-shocks.
That in a doctrine that sees no other forms of artillery than that and the infantry specific staffing run.
I'm can't say after one game whether GOW is overpowered, or undercosted...I wasn't familiar enough with how it works to avoid it the last game I saw it...and as a consequence my tiger kept limping around the map at 2/5th's health(I saw the offmap alot)...it was a wasteland so neither of us hadmore than about 5 units a piece, and were just vp fighting, otherwise my tank would have been an easy kill.
My early impression though, is that 150 is too cheap, and that so is the air attack ability in the other doctrine...this damn ability kills so many squads, and also softens tanks...it's just brutal in the middle of an engagement, and should at least be mitigated in it use by cost.
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*Actually, I just rewatched a replay with that, and it looks like it no longer does much if any damage to tanks, even though I was still scrambling as if it worked like it used to, so maybe that cost isn't too much of a problem
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the 2 factions have seriously different designs.
so costs will be very different
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Its cool, and its good and effective. I really like it, because even if the enemy hits retreat fast, they'll still have a chance to get hit. Perhaps change the cost to 200 munis, like PE sector artillery.
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I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?
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I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?
I find GoW EXTREMELY effective at all. It has low cooldown ( comparing to V1 for instance), 150 mun is just a joke, and it levels everything on designated area. What I have to say, that if it wouldn't be 8 CPs ability it could be called OP.
However it still is either too cheap or too fast reuseable. I'd add about 60 seconds delay more.
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I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?
Recently given the fact that, from what I see, is that you are consistently opposed to any soviet nerfing or limiting, including the SU-122, which GodLikeDennis should have posted a replay in the Beta Forum whereas we went up against one urban soviet whom dropped and the CPU used SU-122s often, and they took out 3 pumas at the same time, did incredible damage to the Tigers, killed Panthers and Panzer IVs at Vet 1 and a few other ridiculous armor killing features. That's my issue.
Back on Topic: When you compare this to a V1, which is of the same price, the God of War 2.0 seems to do incredible damage, that like a V1, but GOW seems to do much more. The initial barrage may be equal to or greater than a V1, and not to mention it's aftershock ability, GOW can last for a couple of minutes. A V1 is easily avoidable as well, because you have about 10+ seconds to react from the beginning of the sound. When GOW falls you really do not get much of a warning and even if you DO retreat it limits your troops from entering the sector due to the risk of falling victim to the aftershock.
My suggestion would be to make the price 200 and possibly make the recharge a bit longer: Compare it to a V1's recharge.
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I'm inclined to entertain intelligent points and discussion, like the one you've raised about cooldown.
GoW should not be spammable, even if you have the muni - but if you are spamming it where are you getting 300+ munitions from?
maybe you have dominant map control and have held it for a while, which brings me to my next thought; is it GoW's fault or did you already lose the game?
theres many factors and variables that go into this game and allow certain situations to transpire. it runs much deeper than your average player can ponder
in either case keep the feedback coming friends
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I dont think the price needs to be increased, wheres the balance issue?
Recently given the fact that, from what I see, is that you are consistently opposed to any soviet nerfing or limiting, including the SU-122
+1.
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@cranial sorry you feel that way, if you had access to the dev balance board you would see I raise very legitimate points about SU things that are unbalanced
in either case, somebody has to be the bad guy. The problem is the flood of inexperieced or poor players flooding the board with problems of their own that arent legitimate balance concerns but actually manifestations of their own poor play
in turn this skewes the popular opinion and perception of many things wrongfully
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Overall, GOW II is much better and its fair enough, I reckon its actually really balanced and soviets do have muni upkeep so ....
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Hi redguard,
I'm glad you're getting some good games with some solid opponents...
I've asked this before of others and I'll bring it up again. There aren't enough replays of good players presenting the "right" way to play against soviets...Since you're getting some good games under your belt, it would be nice for you to post some. Without those as a reference, and as a guide, we may be jumping to conclusions, but it doesn't do much good for you to just say its because we aren't good players and that's our problem, "end of story."
I do find the factions much more balanced at this point than I did pre patch, which between me and my friend, were guaranteed russian victories every game, no matter which of us played wehr. Now I either lose mid game as wehr to base overruns with tank hunters coupled with any number of their complimenting comrades, or I play out a long effing game to finally take the life out of russias many aggressions 50 to 60 minutes in. (actually this can translate into a loss easy enough too)
In these long games, even when I control the better part of the map, I don't find the russians ever having to throw their weapons at me for lack of munitions, inspite of the tanks they field. every time we get to the point of off-maps coming down...they continue to come down from the russians, in every engagement, without let-up. is this because of the early munitions income? I guess 2 per minute doesn't really translate into much, even over the course of an hour long game, but from my lamens perspective GOW could definitely cost more.
That's an opinion that I might withdraw with more play, or with some convincing replays that show how a wehr player keeps a russian economy down.
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I mentioned in a previous post that maybe I was wrong about the straffing run...I don't think I am...the last game I played, I got 5 consecutive, and they did do LOts of damage to tanks...
its too much of a game changer in one shot to be perpetual...more munitions and a longer cooldown would be a blessing
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GoW sholud be compared to Wehrmacht 280mm Defensive rocket barrage. It rapes everything and has a very short cooldown and wide AoE.
Soviets have their tank muni upkeep so 150muni is fine. Aftershock hits both sides.
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The V1 is a much, much more powerful base buster than the God of War ability could be.
Even so, I like the new God of War ability. I still need to use it a bit more before I can definitively say "yes! It's perfect now", but it's looking very good so far.
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Recently given the fact that, from what I see, is that you are consistently opposed to any soviet nerfing or limiting, including the SU-122, which GodLikeDennis should have posted a replay in the Beta Forum whereas we went up against one urban soviet whom dropped and the CPU used SU-122s often, and they took out 3 pumas at the same time, did incredible damage to the Tigers, killed Panthers and Panzer IVs at Vet 1 and a few other ridiculous armor killing features. That's my issue.
Back on Topic: When you compare this to a V1, which is of the same price, the God of War 2.0 seems to do incredible damage, that like a V1, but GOW seems to do much more. The initial barrage may be equal to or greater than a V1, and not to mention it's aftershock ability, GOW can last for a couple of minutes. A V1 is easily avoidable as well, because you have about 10+ seconds to react from the beginning of the sound. When GOW falls you really do not get much of a warning and even if you DO retreat it limits your troops from entering the sector due to the risk of falling victim to the aftershock.
My suggestion would be to make the price 200 and possibly make the recharge a bit longer: Compare it to a V1's recharge.
Totally agree with CranialWizard. And plus: I think the main problem is the abovementioned cooldown, and not the cost. But the 50 (or even 100, but i think that just 50 is better) ammo cost increase that he sugested is totally OK. ;)
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I think the new GOW is wow and its better than sector arty but its cooldown doesn't reflect it. Its muni cost is fine since Soviets have muni upkeep right.
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I think the new GOW is wow and its better than sector arty but its cooldown doesn't reflect it. Its muni cost is fine since Soviets have muni upkeep right.
Yes, I think you're right. I talked without caferul analyzing. But the cooldown time must be well tunned.
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Seriously the GOW V2 (ha ha V2?) has a really good feel now! It probably needs its cooldown modified.
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remember with soviet munition upkeep it is in theory more expensive than comparable arty strikes, and it cannot be used to abuse like v1's and 280mm mortar barrage can be, amongst other axis arty, to nuke bases
its more destructive, in theory, but a heck of a lot more random and less accurate.
I think its fine munitions are everything to soviet if you want to throw away 300 munitions spamming GoW be my guest, i'll retreat and you'll be out a gamechanging amount of munitions
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remember with soviet munition upkeep it is in theory more expensive than comparable arty strikes, and it cannot be used to abuse like v1's and 280mm mortar barrage can be, amongst other axis arty, to nuke bases
If your basic inf is guards (in the most cases in 1.40) than you dont have to tech sturmovies and strelkys. So in the end you will have about 600 mun. Meaning you can abuse that arty strike alot. Watch the replay between me and yauz. He called in IL2 like 5 times, 150 mun each.
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I believe you, but any faction is capable of spamming off map abilitys. the soviet faction just didnt invent that all of a sudden
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yes, but IL2 inparticular is a problem when spammed...you can't just scoot off to the fringes..you have to retreat every infantry unit you have in the general vicinity, and it's also going to soften your tanks. One time will greatly affect the outcome of the current battle.
over and over and over and over with no let up, is just stealing the victory
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IL@ isn't spamable?
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yes, but IL2 inparticular is a problem when spammed...you can't just scoot off to the fringes..you have to retreat every infantry unit you have in the general vicinity, and it's also going to soften your tanks. One time will greatly affect the outcome of the current battle.
over and over and over and over with no let up, is just stealing the victory
True Il-2 is OP especially in team games. GoW is just a late game arti strike - quite easy to avoid (unlike defensive rockets or sector arti).
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registered arty has a huge radius and strikes immediately
il2 rockets are like soft pellets to axis armor its the strafe that needs to be toned down
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registered arty has a huge radius and strikes immediately
il2 rockets are like soft pellets to axis armor its the strafe that needs to be toned down
It will be the same as the strafing run in 2.602 in the next patch
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yeah i know im agreeing with a few of u
<---balance team and all that
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I believe the balance aspects of GoW 2.0 cost/effectiveness/cooldown rates should be compared to similar characteristics for the firebase. Regardless of how you crunch the numbers a firebase can rape axis bases and usually gets to vet3 at three or four barrages.
I is true that IL2s can do a number on the Axis but two Flakwagens do a number on the IL2s.
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In my humble opinion I think that the cost of Gow is way too low. I also dont agree that it can take out a german def doctrine bunker.
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In my humble opinion I think that the cost of Gow is way too low. I also dont agree that it can take out a german def doctrine bunker.
haha youre retarded I take it ???
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I also dont agree that it can take out a german def doctrine bunker.
(http://scifun.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/whut.jpg?w=400&h=300)
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I have found that in most all p vs p games that i play, GOW is used to level wehr bunkers.I didnt have a problem with that at first, given the cost of gow.I figured the late game costs would limit its usage and would be used as a coffin tack for an already dead in the water player. I was i bit wrong in my asumptions though. I began testing it in normal fasion with my brother and going back and forth for a night on EF, and what we found is that the wehr's defence doctrine bunker HP increase still cannot take the gow, and in so many cases whether me or my bro were on german side or not, gow was used in many cases, even in big games, gow is used to turn the tide of the battle with a focused breakthrough attack that we became used to taking advantage of. Over and over again.
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^^youre not a very skilled player are you? just askin
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I think both Gow and the strafing is increased in price to 250 Munition. I have several times killed + 5 of the enemy tanks using gow. I thought otherwise that both things are cool to have, but they are too cheap.
do we not get any more sneak peeks before osther are released? videos, text, images, anything.
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do we not get any more sneak peeks before osther are released? videos, text, images, anything.
It's done when it's done so just be patient.
I think both Gow and the strafing is increased in price to 250 Munition. I have several times killed + 5 of the enemy tanks using gow. I thought otherwise that both things are cool to have, but they are too cheap.
God of War has an aftershock effect that targets enemy units within the direct area you unleashed the initial barrage in. It's a tight and concentrated strike, if you're killing 5 or more tanks in one launch your opponent must be lacking micro.
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+1 Cranial. In the next patch, the aftershock area will be designated on the minimap for all to see so you'll know to stay out of the area.
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So can the enemy see too?
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So can the enemy see too?
Correct.
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So can the enemy see too?
Correct.
That's neat and sounds finally perfectly balanced. :)
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Ahhhh you are connecting the current GoW with the PE sector arty! Do the strikes after the initial GoW same damage as PE sector? Same duration?
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excuse me for going off topic, but what does micro mean? (im not up on the COH slang)
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I'm not up to CoH slang either, but I think it means micromanagement or how you handle every single unit ingame.
Then macro would mean macromanagement or how do you handle your economy.
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Ahhhh you are connecting the current GoW with the PE sector arty! Do the strikes after the initial GoW same damage as PE sector? Same duration?
Not the same duration, I don't know about damage. It will be similar to the Sector arty in that anything within the circle marked on the map is saturated with shells.
I don't think I can say much more but there are other surprises :)
excuse me for going off topic, but what does micro mean? (im not up on the COH slang)
Micro-Short for Micromanaging. It's a term we use to describe the quick and accurate control of single units. For example quickly adapting them to cover or changes in weaponry.
If you turn your MGs in the correct position to cover flanks and adapt to flanking troops then you are executing good micro :)
If you are forgetting about retreated units or leaving your tanks stationary in big close groups you are executing bad micro :P
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ahhh, thank you wizard. ;D
i've had no idea what anyone was on about for ages.
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Not the same duration, I don't know about damage. It will be similar to the Sector arty in that anything within the circle marked on the map is saturated with shells.
Nice! Me like it! :D
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Its also 90% of all the problems when people post about balancing :P
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GoW shells are much more damaging than sector arty shells. There are also multiple shells fired during the aftershocks compared to a single sector arty shell each time. The shells are more inaccurate and smaller rockets/mortar shells are also mixed in compared to sector. Sector has a duration of 2min. GoW lasts 45s I think. GoW will sometimes target friendly units.
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the initial strike is devesating but highly innacurate, the secondary aftershock strikes are comparble to mortar strikes
all in all sector arty is a lot better at defending and GoW is better at attacking
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GoW shells are much more damaging than sector arty shells. There are also multiple shells fired during the aftershocks compared to a single sector arty shell each time. The shells are more inaccurate and smaller rockets/mortar shells are also mixed in compared to sector. Sector has a duration of 2min. GoW lasts 45s I think. GoW will sometimes target friendly units.
Ah what the hell, since it's basically released:
Like dennis said, he described the initial barrage much better. However the aftershock last around 45s and fires at any remaining enemy units (Sometimes allied :/ ) with arty ranging from light mortar shells (>60mm) to shells equivalent to the initial barrage.
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So you (and your enemy) better stay out of the circle. How much more comfortable is the sector arty in comparison ... :P
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I'd say the GOW is more risky but more rewarding. Sector arty has to be targeted to a specific sector so all enemies have to do is just stay out of it. With GOW you can just drop it on a point where there's a combat heavy area...And the circle is quite large so it's hard to avoid if it's in a crucial area.
It won't strike your own units voluntarily IIRC.
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How much more comfortable is the sector arty in comparison ... :P
you'll take much heavier losses walking through sector arty than you would GoW secondary barrages. GoW is really all about the initial barrage. if they retreat as soon as you see the red smoke its a waste, if they dont its a gamewinner
but you cant use sector arty as freely