Ostheer and Trenches

[cephalos]

Ostheer and trench-making caused quite big argue. Poll is simple, but try to support your choice with some arguments.

IMO having one-sided heavy cover for Ostheer would be the best choice. As we know all factions were created with limited historical accuracy ( ie. Bergetiger) but having nice gameplay and balance ( somehow). Also all the factions have something original, even in terms of defences. My vote goes for originality of Ostheer defences, not copying old schemats.

[IJoe]

I gave my vote for this
Post Merge: [time]Чтв 20 Янв 2011 02:43:27[/time]Or something, like this.
Meaning: it should look like a trench, but it shouldn't act like any of those, already present as buildable by brits or sovs.
Maybe, there's a need for restriction of these to be built only in closeness to resource points (like soviet "camps").

[Desert_Fox]

I like the idea of another type of heavy cover like PE Roadblocks or the large trenches in the picture above.

[Analpirat]

I voted for the buildable heavy cover. To me that also includes things like the trenches found on some maps that can be entered, like Joe proposed.

Best suggestion I've seen so far was cephalos' idea, you could also give it a rad name like Panzerbattlement or something like that 

[Wilson]

I voted for buildable heavy cover, because I could be done in an interesting way I'm sure, without any of the balance issues vs Brits that trench quality cover would bring. Also because it's more interesting than trenches when two other factions already have them.

[Walentin 'Walki' L.]

Buildable trenches like brits but not destroyable by pressing a button. So you need to stay or lose the position to the enemy.

[Analpirat]

Buildable trenches like brits but not destroyable by pressing a button. So you need to stay or lose the position to the enemy.

Given that the OH unit who builds trenches is also a trench-wtfpwnz0r unit I don't think the Ostheer would be hurt by a lost trench as much as the brits, for example, would be.

[GodlikeDennis]

I voted for buildable heavy cover. Cephalos' battlement looked good to me.

[Gerrit 'Lord Rommel' G.]

Like i had explained at the Schützen war cmap thread;
I want a trench system.
Ostheer hadnt large squads (4 men). Ostheer use a lot of "small weapons" u cant place in buildings or trenches. So the majority of Ostheers firepower have to stay outside of such a trench system xD

And u have to keep in mind; With the unit pools u have to decided     either u want to play offensive or u want to play defensive.
Ostheer is expensive So u will need a lot of resources and have to reflect your decisions.

[IJoe]

Like i had explained at the Schützen war cmap thread;
I want a trench system.
Ostheer hadnt large squads (4 men). Ostheer use a lot of "small weapons" u cant place in buildings or trenches. So the majority of Ostheers firepower have to stay outside of such a trench system xD

And u have to keep in mind; With the unit pools u have to decided     either u want to play offensive or u want to play defensive.
Ostheer is expensive So u will need a lot of resources and have to reflect your decisions.

Putting all aside, what about 2x2 and bigger games, where OH will be accompanied by other german factions? Trenches would definitely cuase A LOT of problem and drastically affect the game-play.

[Ghost]

i don't understand it. even if you say "brit can't counter trenches", US and soviets can (flamers, grenades and croc).
PE don't have flamers and have to use flame nades or incidiary rounds from mortarhalftrack. so they have disadvantages vs trenches as well.
but that problems are not caused by ostheer beeing able to build trenches.
it is caused by relic not giving their expansion faction enough anti-trench  weapons.
if you say "ostheer having trenches will destroy the game balance" then you would have to ask devs to make axis factions unable to use empty brit trenches, as this would cause the same problem.
and keep this in mind: brits have trenches AND mg nests, mortar pits, 17pounder and bofors. as far as we know from the updates, ostheer will have NO defensive building (just the flak as base defense) and will have to use trenches as defenses.

Putting all aside, what about 2x2 and bigger games, where OH will be accompanied by other german factions? Trenches would definitely cuase A LOT of problem and drastically affect the game-play.

why? it's the other way around. if you have 2 or more allied faction it is likely that it's not just brits but also US or soviets. so the allies would have anti-trench weapons.

[Analpirat]

Like i had explained at the Schützen war cmap thread;
I want a trench system.
Ostheer hadnt large squads (4 men). Ostheer use a lot of "small weapons" u cant place in buildings or trenches. So the majority of Ostheers firepower have to stay outside of such a trench system xD

And u have to keep in mind; With the unit pools u have to decided     either u want to play offensive or u want to play defensive.
Ostheer is expensive So u will need a lot of resources and have to reflect your decisions.

You know, we're not arguing against the basic idea of having trenches, we're arguing against the lame ass brit trenches. Wouldn't you prefer buildable trenches like those that are already present on some maps? (Pointe du Hoc for example). You could also place Heavy Weapons in such trench systems as it was done historically and it wouldn't be imba because you can already make that with sandbags.

[IJoe]

+1^^. Additionally, it would be neat and new

[Analpirat]

i don't understand it. even if you say "brit can't counter trenches", US and soviets can (flamers, grenades and croc).
PE don't have flamers and have to use flame nades or incidiary rounds from mortarhalftrack. so they have disadvantages vs trenches as well.
but that problems are not caused by ostheer beeing able to build trenches.
it is caused by relic not giving their expansion faction enough anti-trench  weapons.
if you say "ostheer having trenches will destroy the game balance" then you would have to ask devs to make axis factions unable to use empty brit trenches, as this would cause the same problem.
and keep this in mind: brits have trenches AND mg nests, mortar pits, 17pounder and bofors. as far as we know from the updates, ostheer will have NO defensive building (just the flak as base defense) and will have to use trenches as defenses.

You see, you are massively wrong here. You don't balance old factions to be able to put up with new factions. You balance the new factions around the old factions. And thusly, the problems we are talking about would be exactly caused by the Ostheer having trenches.
As to the argument of the Ostheer capturing British trenches: The Brit player has control over his trench and he can decide whether its captured or not(because he can just delete them). The Brit player hoewever does not have control where and when the OH player builds his trenches. Simple as that.

And to make an analogy to your reasoning: it is like going to a fencing match and bringing a machine gun and then saying: Well it didn't make it unfair by bringing the machine gun, you should've brought machine guns in the first place.

[Wilson]

i don't understand it. even if you say "brit can't counter trenches", US and soviets can (flamers, grenades and croc).
PE don't have flamers and have to use flame nades or incidiary rounds from mortarhalftrack. so they have disadvantages vs trenches as well.
but that problems are not caused by ostheer beeing able to build trenches.
it is caused by relic not giving their expansion faction enough anti-trench  weapons.
if you say "ostheer having trenches will destroy the game balance" then you would have to ask devs to make axis factions unable to use empty brit trenches, as this would cause the same problem.
and keep this in mind: brits have trenches AND mg nests, mortar pits, 17pounder and bofors. as far as we know from the updates, ostheer will have NO defensive building (just the flak as base defense) and will have to use trenches as defenses.

You see, you are massively wrong here. You don't balance old factions to be able to put up with new factions. You balance the new factions around the old factions. And thusly, the problems we are talking about would be exactly caused by the Ostheer having trenches.
As to the argument of the Ostheer capturing British trenches: The Brit player has control over his trench and he can decide whether its captured or not(because he can just delete them). The Brit player hoewever does not have control where and when the OH player builds his trenches. Simple as that.

And to make an analogy to your reasoning: it is like going to a fencing match and bringing a machine gun and then saying: Well it didn't make it unfair by bringing the machine gun, you should've brought machine guns in the first place.

@Ghost - Yeah, you've got things the wrong way round a little as Analpirat points out. As is, it doesn't matter that the Brits can't clear trenches easily, because only allies can build them. If a Brit player lets a trench fall into enemy hands, he's playing badly and deserves to have huge difficulties clearing it again. Brits were not designed to have to fight trenches placeable by an enemy faction.

No faction needs defensive buildings to defend locations, troops and vehicles can do that just fine if necessary. As you can see with PE, who are fairly limited in static defensive buildings.

PE flame nades aren't unreasonably expensive and they do hard-counter trenches. Nothing the Brits can get without going out of their way is as effective.