[1.11] Sniper/Tank-hunter problems

[Venoxxis]

Hey again.

Fist of all EF-team, you finally did it.
This mod becomes really well engineered now.

GOOD WORK!



But still there are at least a few serious problems which gotta get solved. I was playing with my cousin against 2 hard soviets, we had a very nice run. But after a few
minutes they spammed snipers & AT troops.

My cousin, a very experienced Wehrmacht player usually going for the blitzkrieg doc, than tried to beat that spam with a StuH. But the problem was:

The sniper teams did not wanted to die. Sometimes, even with a perfect hit they did not take ANY DAMAGE AT ALL.

usually it did work well with all the other kind of inf. but these vetted AT-guys were just another serious problem. Often, again, no any results even with a perfect hit.


Have a look at this



Regards,

-V-

[Red_Stinger]

I think AI on EF still have bonus for their units. In 1.04, I was playing Werh with 2 allies on prorokhovka, over 3 soviet AI, and with a puma, I was unable to kill a damn sharshooter unit, like your cousin. I'm not a very decent player like him, but its not the problem anyway: I put my puma near to the snip team, and they dont wanted to die at all!

Then, I've tried to play as soviet over a Werh AI, and my sharshooters team met a puma, they have died within 5 seconds!!

[Strayker]

Well ive noticed another thing. Doesnt matter if you play as soviet or vice versa you play against one. The Tank Hunters are seriously OP. For like 220 manpower they are overall killing kick-ass machines (propably cloned Chuck Norris`s). Ive played against hard Wehrmacht AI...that should have hp bonuses and etc. It doesnt mattered...i had like 6 or 7 squads of these uber-humans, upgraded with global upgrade "Men against Tanks" that enabled second guy in squad with that AT rifle and ive killed everything what i saw. No matter if it was infantry, vehicles, tanks or even base structures! HQ building has come down in matter of maybe 20 seconds...not to mention a Stug which basically wasnt even there!

[Venoxxis]

Well this is right what my cousin said.
These guys are seriously OP.

[GodlikeDennis]

Actually I disagree. I don't find tank hunters too strong at all. Any unit in a blob of 6-7 is bound to be powerful. I think they're perfectly fine as they are. That is, not being very powerful in straight up combat (compared to shreked grens for eg.) but having AT nades, ambush and mines to give them some more utility.

[Venoxxis]

Not really. Because a blob of the same kind of infantry is normaly not good against everything.

But tankhunters are.

[Strayker]

Actually I disagree. I don't find tank hunters too strong at all. Any unit in a blob of 6-7 is bound to be powerful. I think they're perfectly fine as they are. That is, not being very powerful in straight up combat (compared to shreked grens for eg.) but having AT nades, ambush and mines to give them some more utility.

Yeah ofcourse any blob should be powerful. But as Venoxxis said...not against everything as these guys are. Anyway look Rangers which are doctrinal call in and costs 600mp doesnt do so much damage against Stug that these uber-humans do. And another thing is that for like 1320 manpower which 6 squads of these Tank Hunters costs youll only have 2 squads of Rangers...only 2! So what im pointing at is that they are too cheap and too powerful, plus they arent a doctrinal unit so its very easy to have them en-masse. From my point of view there is two ways to balance them...either change their cost, to say like PE Tank Busters on 360mp or nerf their damage.

[Seeme]

Sorry devs, it but 1.11 is way t... I cant say it.

I make 1-2 groups of these and I win insantly.

3-5 Red banners.

2-3 Unpgrade tank hunters.

Or I make 1 big group with a x number of red banners, and about 5 tankies.

[GodlikeDennis]

Rangers are 400 mp actually. They are only quite bad against the front armour of a tank but will demolish from the rear.

Tank hunters are not good against infantry at all. They are similar to an airborne blob in that, sometimes they get lucky and hit you with their weapons lots but this is a one-off. Honestly, if you can't beat any kind of blob you need more practice. There are loads of anti-blob tools at your disposal.

[Venoxxis]

Tank hunters are not good against infantry at all.

No, simply and easy, nope.

These guys DO rock your infantry because they do massive damage with one shot.
Usually they dont hit infantry that often, but if you got a blob, they will smash your boys!

[Zerstörer]

considering the AT rifle stats are virtually identical (apart from the damage/ ROF) to a bazooka...you're not likely to take more casualties than you would from a shrek/bazooka/piat/recoiless blob....in fact I don't think I've seen more than a single casualty to the AT rifles in the last week...

[wordsmith]

PTRD teams do kill infantry from time to time, however I never used more than 2-3 squads at a time so I didn't notice any unusual OP towards infantry. However if PTRD rifle hits a man it's instant kill (just like Schreck or Bazooka...).

My question is: would it be possible to make PTRD rifles same as Bazooka, MG42, Recoil.Rifle - in the meaning that it will drop from time to time when a squad member got killed? This way it should be less OP and also opponent would be able to take it and use it.

[PoldekPL]

Biggest problem is real-life PTRD - it's one person - anti-tank - rifle. What does it mean? I't AT gun, so if PTRD was designed to penetrate tough tank armor it doesn't suprise me that they deal so heavy dmg to buildings. Of course even heavy tanks must give up under heavy PTRD fire (10-12 rifles can do MIRACLES). But, what about killing enemy soldiers? It's rifle, operated by one soldier, so it isn't too hard to aim directly at enemy (bazooka/pzfaust/pzshreck don't guarantee direct hit into aimed point, rifles do). AT rounds that hit a man usually can rip off his arm/leg (but not tear him apart, let's be reasonable people -_-), cannot it?

So what we can do to balance it? Break realism. Lower dmg vs heavy tanks, remove dmg vs Tiger/KT/Jadgpanther, make it do dmg only with critical hit), lower accuracy vs infantry... and drastically reduce dmg vs building. But that would make them useless.

What else we can do? There's always hard cap - maybe we can try limiting them to 6 un-upgraded squads, and 4 after MvT upgrade?

[GodlikeDennis]

Except that you don't have to do ALL those things. Weapons in this game have different modifiers against different things for a reason.

I see no reason to nerf what I regard as a well balanced unit. Props to the devs for creating a cheap, light AT support unit with good abilities that scale. They are simply NOT good against infantry and anyone who says otherwise needs to play with them more. They are no different to a blob of airborne. You seem to think that you should be able to counter his 1400 manpower blob with two squads of grens. If anything, their damage against pumas should be ever so slightly increased.

[Budwise]

Stuh's suck tbh and rarely hit anything unless you use attack ground.

MP44's however shred the AT squads.  Here's a replay vs a pretty large amount of these squads, i use Pumas to deal with them.

http://www.gamereplays.org/community/index.php?s=&showtopic=622099&view=findpost&p=7295659

Also I wouldnt make balance considerations based on a compstomp.