2nd reworked Ostheer concept - by Wordsmith

[wordsmith]

2nd reworked EF Ostheer Concept

by Wordsmith

ver.2.1

Note to 2nd edition:  I reworked my concept because it was not thought well through. Vet system remained same but I reworked units, tiers and resource mechanics (fuel loss). Also I add new buildings - Emergency supply yard and Specialist train facility. I also got some inspirations - especially from Venoxxis for graphics (nice) and made some graphics too. I think it could give better picture of what I'm trying to say.

Overview

The Wehrmacht on Eastern front faced different challenges than on other battlefields.  First it was huge distances, thus prolonging supply lines and logistics. Then huge numbers of Red Army retreating in the beginning of conflict and later attacking and pushing Wehrmacht from Russia back. I think Red Army design reflects this quite well so I based my design of Ostheer on these facts too.

As a hardcore PE player I tried do design the Ostheer as balanced as possible (because I suffer from PE imbalance in every single game) and to include units and abilities which PE and Wehrmacht factions doesn't have. In general it is quite hard to come with something unique because 2 other Axis factions covers a wide variety of weapons. I tried to make my best.

Buildings and tech

Whole EF war period can be divided into 3 basic eras:
-1941/1942 initial German attack, massive advance, infantry and light/medium tanks used
- 1942/1943 advance stopped, famous battles over big cities, Red Army recovers, new tanks hit the battle
- 1944/1945 German defense and retreat, defensive weapons used, lack of resources, desperate measures

These periods are represented with 3 different buildings, which can be build by Pioneer halftrack  (from HQ) or later by Stormpioneers/ sWS Heavy Military Tractor.  Prerequisite to next building is previous building as shown on the picture:



Except Forward strongpoint all building can be built only in HQ sector.

Buildings - Units

HQ
1.  Pioneer halftrack: Sdkfz 7 halftrack, unarmed
- basic building unit, builds buildings
- can repair units
- can't capture points
- can lay mines (35 ammo)

Tier 1: Blitzkrieg barracks
1. Ostheer infantry: 5 men, rifles
- basic infantry used to capture and first fights
- it could be a non-German  infantry unit representing that other nations were included in Ostheer
- after Tier2 it can be upgraded with one ZB.vz26 Light Machine gun (50 Ammo)
- can build barbwire

2.  MG34 Machine gun: 3 Men
- MG34 has slower rate of fire than MG42 and thus creates less suppress, it is similar to .30 MG

3. Pak 35/36, 37mm AT gun: 3 men
- can penetrate only small vehicles armor (M8, Stuart, T70/90)

4. 7.5 cm Movable infantry artillery: 5 men push gun (like Paks)
- after deploy can indirect shoot artillery barrage, short range since it is light arty (larger range than mortar, but smaller range than classic arty howitzers)


Tier 2: Tank deploy garage
1. PzIIL "Luchs"
- light recon tank

2. PzIII J
- medium tank, backbone of the Ostheer armored divisions
- upgrade to L version with better armor (75 Ammo)

3.  Sdkfz 251 Halftrack
- reinforce infantry
- can transport 3 squads, 12 men
- possible upgrade to 251/2 version with 81mm mortar (50 Ammo)... then loose transport ability, mortar version has ability to Bombard (only with STF building)
- possible upgrade to 251/17 version with 20mm Flak38 Anti Aircraft gun (50 Ammo)... then loose transport ability, can shoot planes, creates good suppression (only with ESY building)
- after Tier3 possible upgrade to 251/22 version with 75mm Pak40 Anti Tank gun (75 Ammo)... then loose transport ability

4. StugIIIG self propelled assault gun

5. Tiger Heavy tank
- available after Tier3 is build
- until researched Reliability upgrade (100 MP, 30 Fuel)  every Tiger produced has possibility 33% engine breakdown similar to critical hit to engine, which is checked in every 1min. interval, result engine damage can be repaired normally (this is reflecting poor reliability of first vehicles)
- Tiger has "Progressive popcap" attribute, it means that first Tiger build has 14 popcap, next would have 16 and next 18 and so on representing the fact that Tiger was state of the art technology and it required high prestige to obtain more of them. If some Tiger is destroyed this Popcap will decrease too so the popcap limit could be then like this:
1 Tiger  14
2 Tigers 30
3 Tigers 48
4 Tigers 68
5 Tigers 90


Reliability upgrade (100 MP, 30 Fuel)
- Tiger tanks will no more suffer from random breakdowns 

Tier 3: Defensive station
- unlocks the ability to construct the Forward strongpoint

1. Reserves infantry (i.e.Hitlerjugend): 3 men squad, (cheap infantry to defend homeland!)
- can be used for capture
- can help building Forward strongpoint to build it quicker, but can't build itself and can't repair
- when in green cover they cloak automatically
- fire Panzerfaust ability (35 ammo)
Note:  can be used for re-manning the AT guns/MGs/Mortars after it will be repatched by Relic...

2. Assault squad (i.e. SS-Stosstruppen): 4 men squad
- elite infantry with better armor and health, shock troops, not possible to retreat, not possible to suppress
- ability to Throw incendiary grenade (25 Ammo)
- ability to Fight hand-to-hand (free, cooldown)... assaulting enemy infantry when they get close, they can attack relentlessly engaging close infantry hand-to-hand for short period (5 seconds, reload 3 sec. so each man can kill max.2 close enemies) killing instantly with 1 shot

3. Raketenwerfer 56: 6 men
- 30 cm rocket launcher, similar to 15cm Nebelwerfer (larger range and damage, lower accuracy, slower rate of fire, no fire damage just impact rockets)

4. Flakpanzer Kugelblitz, mobile AAA
- anti-air gun, good vs infantry and light armored targets


Specialist train facility (STF)

- non-tier building used to train specialist soldiers and unlock some abilities
- if Specialist train facility is built then Emergency supply yard can't be build

STF Abilities:
1.  MG34 Ambush (150MP, 20 Fuel), MG34  can cloak and ambush incoming infantry

2.  Leichtgeschütz 40 (160MP, 25 Fuel)
- allows upgrade for Assault squad  with 7.5 cm Leichtgeschütz 40 (recoilless gun) (125 Ammo)


STF Units:
1. Stormpioneers (Sturmpioniere): 4 men squad soldier type
- builds buildings, barbwire, sandbags and tank traps
- can lay mines (25 Ammo)
- have advanced repair ability
- can capture points
- upgrade Flamers (50 Ammo), 2 men receive flamers
- received Satchel charge ability (50 Ammo) and Throw Molotov Cocktail (20 Ammo) after Tier3

2. Elite sniper: 1 Man
- as standard sniper but with +10 sight range but  K98 rifle has slower rate of fire than G43 of Wehr sniper
- has 1.2 more health than Wehr sniper

3. Gebirgsjäger: 4 men squad
- available after after Tier2
- has increased sight range than standard infantry (=40)
- long range combat experts, uses G43 scoped rifles, good accuracy at long range
- ability to Throw grenade (25 Ammo)
- after Tier3 able to upgrade with Panzerschreck (75 Ammo)


Emergency supply yard (ESY)

- non-tier building used to manage supplies stock and unlock some abilities
- if Emergency supply yard is built then Specialist train facility can't be build

ESY Abilities:
1. Stielgranate 41 upgrade for Pak 35/36 (120 MP, 15 Fuel)
- ability to shoot Stielgranate 41, shaped charge which can penetrate any armor (35 Ammo, 15 seconds cooldown)

2. Advanced recruiting upgrade (150  MP, 25 Fuel)
- increases max.men in Ostheer infantry from 5 to 6

3. Conditioning upgrade (100 MP, 10 Fuel)
- ability to run for Assault squad (similar to PE run) (free, cooldown)

4. Organize supply of Fuel (350 MP)
- gives 50 Fuel
- long cooldown 7min.

5. Organize supply of Ammo (250 MP)
- gives 50 Ammo
- cooldown 5min.

ESY Units:
1.  sWS Heavy Military Tractor
- available after Tier3
- lightly armored, unarmed
- builds buildings
- can lay mines (25 Ammo)
- have advanced repair ability
- can't capture points
- but can secure points for increased income (as Embark/Disembark ability)
- Panzerwerfer upgrade (150 Ammo), 10-barreled 15 cm Nebelwerfer  42 rocket launcher after Tier3

Prestige center - Veterancy

Prestige center serves as gathering point for experience. Units doesn't become veterans by experience, instead all experienced is counted inside this building and can be checked every time clicking on it. For those experience points medals can be granted to particular units, making it then more valuable in combat:



25exp Iron Cross 1st class
50exp German Cross
90exp Knight's Cross

Each medal is then displayed with unit's banner similar to PE def/off veterancy. Each unit can receive only 1 individual medal, it doesn't have to have lower medals to receive bigger one. So it is possible to distribute a Knight's cross to a unit without any medal. Effect of medals are cumulative, higher medal has bigger impact. Medals could also grant some special ability, but I haven't thought those yet.

Example of Tiger with all medals:



Medal benefits to units can be in general:

Infantry
Iron Cross: Max.health 1.1, Accuracy 1.1, Reload 0.9
German Cross: Max.health 1.2, Received damage 0.85, Received accuracy 0.85
Knight's Cross: Max.health 1.3, Received suppression 0.75, Damage 1.5

Guns
Iron Cross: Max.health 1.1, Accuracy 1.1, Reload 0.9
German Cross: Max.health 1.1, Received damage 0.9, Received accuracy 0.9
Knight's Cross: Max.health 1.3, Received accuracy 0.9, Damage 1.5

Vehicles
Iron Cross: Max.speed 1.1, Accuracy 1.1
German Cross: Max.health 1.2, Penetration 1.3
Knight's Cross:  Received damage 0.8, Damage 1.5

Forward strongpoint
Can be build in the own sector, it is a small placement surrounded with sandbags with hole inside. Infantry can garrison it (2 Slots, 6 Men Capacity). Forward strong point can be upgraded:
- Medical station (125 Ammo), builds a medical station which can heal all friendly infantry nearby
- Observation tower (50 Ammo), decreases capacity to 1 Slot, 3 Men, Increases sight range by +25
- Bobby trapped place (50 Ammo), looks like standard strongpoint and can still be garrisoned, but if enemy infantry tries to garrison it it will blow up and kills infantry which tried it

Units/buildings building costs summary
Tier 1: Blitzkrieg barracks (200 MP, 25 Fuel)
Tier 2: Tank deploy garage (250 MP, 50 Fuel)
Tier 3: Defensive station (250 MP, 60 Fuel)
Specialist train facility (200 MP, 30 Fuel)
Emergency supply yard (200 MP, 30 Fuel)
Prestige center (100 MP, 10 Fuel)
Forward strongpoint (120 MP)

HQ:  Pioneer halftrack (160 MP), Sdkfz 7 halftrack, unarmed
T1: Ostheer infantry (220 MP), 5 men, rifles
T1:  MG34 Machine gun (250 MP), 3 Men, Luger
T1: Pak 35/36, 37mm AT gun (280 MP), 3 men, Luger
T1: 7.5 cm le.IG 18 Movable infantry artillery (320 MP, 20 Fuel), 5 men, Luger
T2: PzIIL "Luchs" (230 MP, 35 Fuel), 2 cm KwK 38 L/55, MG34
T2: PzIII J, Medium tank (350 MP, 60 Fuel),  50mm KwK 38 L/42 gun, MG34 Machine gun
T2:  Sdkfz 251 Halftrack (200 MP, 25 Fuel)
T2: StugIIIG assault gun (450 MP, 75 Fuel), 7.5 cm StuK 40 L/48
T2: PzVIE Tiger Heavy tank (900 MP, 200 Fuel), 8.8 cm KwK 36 L/56 gun, 2x MG34 Machine gun
T3: Reserves infantry (110 MP), 3 men squad, K98 rifles
T3: Assault squad (450 MP), 4 men squad, 3xMP44, 1xMG42, MG34
T3: Raketenwerfer 56 (350 MP), 6 men, Luger
T3: Flakpanzer Kugelblitz  (420MP, 45 Fuel), 2x 30mm Flak 103/38
STF: Stormpioneers (Sturmpioniere) (280 MP), 4 men squad soldier type, MP40
STF: Elite sniper (420 MP), 1 Man, K98 scoped
STF: Gebirgsjäger (330 MP), 4 men squad, G43 rifles
ESY:  sWS Schwere Wehrmachtschlepper,  Heavy Military Tractor (220 MP, 20 Fuel)




Fuel loss principle
Fuel income will decrease with every single tank lost representing the later fuel shortage and also that German industry was not able to match production capacity of Russians (or Allies as well) later in the war. Every tank then become a treasure and should be treated well. This would be a big challenge to balance it, but it can bring interesting element into a game play. 

Every lost tank results in decrease of fuel income according to the unit representing long supply lines and heavy logistics dependence along with the late war fuel shortage for Germany:
PzII: -1 fuel/min.
PzIII: -1 fuel/min.
StugIII: -1 fuel/min.
Tiger: -3 fuel/min.
Kugelblitz: -1 fuel/min.
Wespe: -1 fuel/min.
Nashorn: -2 fuel/min.
Sturmpanzer IV: -2 fuel/min.
Elefant: -3 fuel/min.


This loose can not be regained, but is limited to -20 Fuel/min. and could not be less than zero. Minimum Fuel flow should be always guaranteed to +5 Fuel/min. after applying the minus score. This means if player has +30 Fuel/min. and has penalty -20 Fuel/min., he receives still +10 Fuel/min.. If he has only +20Fuel/min. income and same penalty -20 Fuel/min., he will still receive +5 Fuel/min. regardless.

Note: On regular 1v1 maps, the usual fuel income from half of the map should be about +20 Fuel/Min. Normally player had to loose about 10-20x tanks to reach bottom fuel income which is quite a lot. In common game if players are equally good and game lasts long there are about 5-10 tanks loses average. After that one of the sides reaches advantage and eventually wins.
 Ostheer player could risk and push opponent for more territory but could loose some tank in this which could lead to later fuel shortage but this was exactly as it happened during WW2. 

Doctrines

Maneuver warfare strategy

Maneuver warfare doctrine focuses on offence.  Player is given the abilities to strike far in front of advacing troops. Armored group can then quickly advance and destroy everything in its path.









Left side: Combined arms
Advanced recon (1CP) - let the infantry do the recon so our panzers can be aware of enemy AT weapons
- unit passive ability, all infantry units receive increased sight range +10, including garrison units in buildings

Ju87D strike (2CP) - also Luftwaffe wants to do their part in this glorious campaign, let them seed the fear into hearts of enemy
- player active ability 250 Ammo cost, Stuka bomber will dive drop 1xSC500 and 2xSC250 bombs on designed area, siren wail will also increase suppression in larger area around impact

Wespe (3CP) - help our mechanized forces to destroy distant enemies with mobile artillery
- call-in unit 550MP cost, mobile 10.5 cm leFH 18M L/28 arty
- ability shoot artillery barrage
- ability shoot smoke barrage
- max.3

Right side: Armored spearhead tactics
Fast advance (2CP) - crush enemy with our armors
- player active ability 150 Ammo cost, increases the speed (+3) and decrease the received accuracy (0.75) of all vehicles for period of 30sec.

Armor fighting spirit (3CP) - all tanks now serves as source of inspiration and example to our troops
- unit passive ability, all tanks now act as veteran sergeant of PE, giving all surrounding infantry  units 0.75 received suppression and 1.25 received experience

Nashorn (3CP) - help out AT units with this outstanding mobile gun
- call-in unit 550MP cost, mobile 88 mm PaK 43/1 AT gun
- lightly armored



Indirect approach strategy

Indirect approach focuses purely on resource war. The economics behind the fighting troops is as same important as troops itself. Without resources even most deadly weapons could not be manufactured thus would be not deployed. Player could arrange more supplies while disrupting enemy supply lines to a point of total resource shortage.






Left side: Economy war
Economy boost (1CP) - everybody in our homeland increased its productivity to support war effort
- player active ability 300 MP cost, fuel income increase +50/min., ammo income increase +50/min., duration 1min.

Priority supply (3CP) - your prestige allows you to arrange better supplies
- passive ability, increases MP income by +25/min.

Bombard supply routes (4CP) - let's hurt the economy of the enemy, bombard their supply lines
- player active ability 300 Ammo cost, for duration of 45 sec. all enemy income of MP, fuel, ammo is halved (bombard sounds can be heard on background indicating the bombardment and demoralizing the opponent)

Right side: Sabotage tactics
Industry sabotage (2CP) - sabotage the production of enemy
- player active ability 100 Ammo cost, for duration of 1min. all enemy production time is doubled (or production speed is halved)

Saboteur squad (2CP) - squad of saboteurs which is sent to decimate enemy
- call-in unit 270MP cost, 3 men, MP40
- invisible on small map and on tactical map
- once deployed in enemy territory, they disrupt income from that sector effectively halving the resource income
- have ability to plant mines (25 Ammo) and to plant Demolition charges (50 Ammo)
- only 1 Saboteur squad in game at time allowed

Disinformation (3CP) - send false information to enemy to confuse him
- player active ability 150 Ammo cost, for duration of 45 sec. false information will be displayed on enemy small map and on tactical map, indicating random infantry squads and tanks moving towards his base




Holding ground strategy

No step back! Only with good defense Ostheer is able to stop those red hordes. This doctrine allows the player to focus on defense and call-in most dangerous heavy mobile guns like "Brummbär" or invincible Elefant.






Left side: Artillery support
Carefull positioning (2CP) - find a good spot for our artillery and fortify it
- unit active ability (no cost)
- 7.5 cm le.IG 18 artillery have now ability to dig-in, which will reduce a barrage cooldown by 30% but after it is deployed, it can not redeploy and move further (become static emplacement)

17cm K18 Bombard (2CP) - devastate enemy with our powerful artillery
- player active ability (175 Ammo), fires  17 cm Kanone 18 arty off-map heavy barrage

Sturmpanzer IV (3CP) - call-in a devastating assault gun "Brummbär"
- call-in unit 750MP cost, 15 cm StuH 43 L/12, MG34
- only 2 units available at time


Right side: Defensive operations
Rugged defense (1CP) - let the enemy pay for daring to attack us
- player active ability (75 Ammo), all infantry units in yellow or green cover or garrisoned in buildings receive damage 0.5, receive accuracy 0.75, receive suppression 0.5 for 30sec.
- only affects units in own territory

Ambush (3CP) - lure the enemy to our traps and destroy them
- unit active ability (no cost), all AT guns can now cloak while waiting and ambush incoming enemy with higher first shot damage
- this ability affects Pak 35/36, Sdkfz.251/22 (75mm AT gun upgrade), StugIII, Elefant

Elefant (5CP) - call the hardest beast on Eastern front, mighty Elefant
- call-in unit 900MP cost, 8.8 cm PaK 43/2 L/71 heavy armored mobile AT gun
- only one Elefant allowed in game
- possible upgrade with MG34 for protection vs infantry (75 ammo)

Summary

To summarize my concept, I wrote this short list of main ideas:
- veterancy is gained globally in Prestige center, then distributed to individual units by decorating it with medals
- fuel income decreases with lost vehicles, representing later fuel shortage, long supply lines and German damaged industry - on the other hand Ostheer will have one quick light and medium tank to fight earlier than other factions - PzII or PzIII
- there are 3 tiers, which are linear one after another, but choosing from 2 special buildings (Emergency supply yard and Specialist train facility) could diverse a play style a little

Unit tech availability summary:

To compare with other factions I made also following analysis, in terms of fuel costs.

Fast 1st armored car (not destroyable by infantry without AT weapons):
US:  15+50+45+30 = 140 (M8)
Brit: 15+30+35+45 = 125 (Stuart)
Russian: 115+30 = 145 (T70)
Wehrmacht: 35+50+35+35 = 155 (Puma)
PE: 20+30+40+40 = 130 (MarderIII)... actually PE Marder could be destroyed by Flamers, maybe by BARs too (if shooting from back)
Ostheer: 25+50+35 = 100 (PzII)

*Note: fast PzII is available soon because Wehrmacht was stronger in tank doctrine from begin of the war, that time any possible opponent could have AT gun for sure. I'm aware that it may lead to spam PzII-PzIIIs and base raids, but this was the Wehrmacht initial tactics developed by Guderian. Opponent can then focus more on defense from begin and making mines and AT guns. Spamming PzII then would possible make player exhaust fuel supplies due to fuel loss.

1st tank:
US: 15+50+90+55 = 210 (M10)
Brit: 15+30+35+65+70 = 215 (Cromwell)
Russian: 115+75 = 190 (T34)
Wehrmacht: 35+50+35+50 = 170 (StugIV)
Wehrmacht: 35+50+50+50+80 = 260 (PzIV)
PE: 20+30+60+60 = 170 (PzIV)
Ostheer: 25+50+60 = 135 (PzIII)
Ostheer: 25+50+75 = 150 (StugIII)
Ostheer: 25+50+60+200 = 335 (Tiger)
Ostheer: 25+50+60+45 = 180 (Kugelblitz)

Ostheer vs Red Army charts:





Looking forward to your comments!

[Paciat]

Thats the best Ostheer concept Ive seen so far.

Some things are great but some I do not like. Ill strat from the start and point out these things:

1. Prestige centre sounds nice but does it mean that you can vet upgrade units that saw no combat with prestige gained by other units? Also Prestige bonuses are very large!

2. +1 to the pionieer halftrack.

3. How about an LMG upgrade for Ostheer infantry? Maybe a reskinned bren (only one) 40-50ammo.

4. Youre HMGs (and probably PAKs) have only 3 men. Becouse ostheer cant recrew how about a 4th man upgrade. I could also afect 7,5cm arti.

5. I dont like that Ostheer has no light vehicles (bikes, kubelwagons, ACs) and no AA defence (quad halftrack instead of PzII) no halftracks to reinforce.

6. MarderIII? Isnt that what PE has? I would like to see a StugIII. I know that ist like a StugIV but now everyone uses Gwagons anyway.

7. I like that you didnt use PzIV and Panther tanks.
+1 for being original.

8. Hitleryouth infantry. Wouldnt it be better to make a 6 man squad upgrade to Ostheer infantry? It could also afect weapon crews(4th man).

9. Elite Stormtroopers and Snipers. Sounds lile wehrmacht to me. How about Gebirgsjäger (long range fighters with marksman ability and Fallschirmjäger camo). I also dont like hand-to-hand ability when its used on my commandos when they get in close with smoke.

10. Raketenwerfer 56: 4 men. The funny thing is youre light arti has more man than this heavy battery. Also 300mm is too heavy co carry it by foot. Sturmpanzer IV is an only bunker killer you need.

Doctrines:
11. Advanced recon - increased sight range +10 is a lot for 1 CP and advanced recon sounds like a joke in an army that has no early spotting unit.

12. Ju87D strike - sounds like better and cheaper P-47. Why cant it drop just 1 big (1800kg or smaller) bomb with point blank accuracy. It would be good for blowing up bridges too.

13. Wespe 475MP is pretty cheap. 25lbs costs 450MP/75fuel! 550MP is the right price.

14. Armor fighting spirit
+1

15. Nashorn - it cant have longer gun range than 17lbs so it would be a more powerfull (but it cant be as powerfull as an immobile 88) MarderIII. Thats another reason to change youre MarderIII to StugIII.

16. Bombard supply routes - sounds like a US/UK tactic. Luftwaffe was mainly to support ground troops.

17. Saboteur squad and Disinformation are nice but a whole Indirect approach strategy is a bad idea. Mixing it with airborne or non german axis units is what I would like to see.

18. Youre Left side of Holding ground strategy is more powerfull than a whole UK arti doctrine.

19. Rugged defense - receive damage 0.5 x receive accuracy 0.75 = 0,375 receive damage. OP. Even a vet 2 terminator captain gives less defence bonuses.

20. Ambush - OP. You want to make a hellcat out of every german tank?

21. Elefant - an Ostheer must-have.

[irik]

I like this concept. It is Unique, and I think it can counter the Soviets. I think you should give a Stug III instead of Marder III like the person above me said.

[wordsmith]

Some things are great but some I do not like. Ill strat from the start and point out these things:

Thanks for the feedback mate I'm aware that balance is most important element for CoH. As I said, I like to play PE and I see everyday what can balance do when playing vs US no room for error... anyway first some general notes:

- It is really hard to come with something new, especially in terms of weapons because Ostheer is still mostly German army and both other factions (Wehr&PE) covers wide variety of vehicles and infantry which fought in WW2. So I guess in special cases Ostheer could be allowed to have 1-2 similar units as the other two Axis factions. Uniqueness should be in game mechanics mostly - which I tried to design with Fuel loss principle and Vet system.

- When I designed doctrines I tried to think as what would I need if I play totally offensive/defensive or resource war. That is why my doctrines are designed in regards to those facts. If some ability is OP or UP is for now academic question, because it could be proven only when programmed and played extensively. We all remember that when Red Army comes out several moths ago, it needed to be patched really quickly due to imbalance. And I'm pretty sure that developers have done their best to test it very much before first release...

Now to your remarks:

1. I thought about having only 1 medal per unit rule, it all depends on XP costs for medals and abilities. It can be tuned IMO, there are zounds of possibilities. And yes that was the idea that also units which do not saw combat could be promoted (as it is possible for Wehr and slightly for British players too). It should be considered as those units were repositioned from other fronts and gained this experience there. It could be the part of the Ostheer tactic to send waves of weak infantry to gain XP, make then some elite units with medals and charge.

3. In other words Czechoslovak ZB vz.26 Light MG yes that could work, but available after tier2 is build.

4. This not possibility to recrew ability really suck and had to be patched IMO to have fun playing EF... otherwise it puts unbalnaced element into game. I guess you are right on this, maybe it should be manned with more men but I don't like it and consider it as a temporary solution only.

5. I tried to avoid light vehicles since whole PE is about those... btw there are PzII and Upgradeable Halftrack in my concept so there are some options on this.

6. That is exatly why I hesitated to include StugIII , because it is the same as StugIV. I thought that Marder would be better option since it can complete PzIII better - as PzIII rides forward and Marder kites from behind.

8. The whole tier3 should reflect the desperate late war situation for Germany. Maybe it could replace Ostheer infantry as representing that all Axis allies let Germany alone fighting... so after tier3 is build, Ostheer would not be available and only Hitleryouth infantry could be build.

9. These units were considered the best of the best. I agree that I let my imagination losse on Stormtroopers, but elite sniper could work pretty well - better sight range and health, higher cost makes him good for scouting and counter-snipe. Stormtroopers should reflect the SS elite units, as to the death fighting infantry (maybe it should not have the ability to retreat as russians).

10. In this case I didn't checked the weight of RWf56 It' not a problem to even replace it with other unit. Any idea? But it should be unit from years 1944-45...

11. Advanced spotting should work for infantry but could be a good benefit to elite sniper too.

12. Hmmm this could be like Goliath from the air, yes I like that idea. But has to create suppress too with siren, this was like icon of early WW2 years.

13. I thought Wespe as small arty piece with slightly bigger range than Mortars. It could be tuned.

15. this all depends on settings (cost, range, damage, speed etc.), I think this should be tuned when testing the game.

16. Well bombard was meant with heavy arty not aircrafts. Germans used those heavy cannons to siege and destroy.

17. Indirect approach is for players who tend to play economically, macro. Using map to control high points and managing resources...

18. It is just smoke, off-map arty and arty-build permit. It is similar to US Inf doctrine right side.

19. Could be tuned.

20. This I thought over and over again. You see this ability should reflect later war development when Germans camouflaged everything, not only on eastern front. Most of the kills to Russian armors were with hidden AT guns luring Russians to traps. Maybe this could be changed to camouflage ability for AT guns and mobile AT guns not tanks.

[Paciat]

[quote author=wordsmith
8. The whole tier3 should reflect the desperate late war situation for Germany. Maybe it could replace Ostheer infantry as representing that all Axis allies let Germany alone fighting... so after tier3 is build, Ostheer would not be available and only Hitleryouth infantry could be build.

16. Well bombard was meant with heavy arty not aircrafts. Germans used those heavy cannons to siege and destroy.

17. Indirect approach is for players who tend to play economically, macro. Using map to control high points and managing resources...

18. It is just smoke, off-map arty and arty-build permit. It is similar to US Inf doctrine right side.
[/quote]
8. Untill the no recrew bug is fixed theres no need for late cheap infantry. Also Hitleryouth werent field divisions they just garisoned in cities.
So how about a very cheap (150MP) 3 man squad call-in that can fire a panzerfaust for free. They could be called out of houses like partisants. Cooldown on this call-in would be very short, cooldown on fire faust (0ammo) long. They would have only pionieer MP40.

16. The problem is that in 1944 only germans were under siege. So how about an anti siege ability? :
1/2 of supplies can be gained from cut-off territories.

18. "It is just smoke" I saw it on youtube that 2 mortars created a smoke screen and then some flame pioneres atacked at least 2 bofors, trench with tommies and other emplacements. They lost no man!
Smoke is a very underrated ability. Heres another video becouse I couldnt find the one I was talking about. It also shows the real power of smoke.
CoH Commando Smoke

[Ghost]

18. "It is just smoke" I saw it on youtube that 2 mortars created a smoke screen and then some flame pioneres atacked at least 2 bofors, trench with tommies and other emplacements. They lost no man!
Smoke is a very underrated ability. Heres another video becouse I couldnt find the one I was talking about. It also shows the real power of smoke.

Do you mean this one (at ~2:40)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRRTo9VFIsQ&feature=player_embedded#
CoH Commando Smoke

[wordsmith]

8. Untill the no recrew bug is fixed theres no need for late cheap infantry. Also Hitleryouth werent field divisions they just garisoned in cities.
So how about a very cheap (150MP) 3 man squad call-in that can fire a panzerfaust for free. They could be called out of houses like partisants. Cooldown on this call-in would be very short, cooldown on fire faust (0ammo) long. They would have only pionieer MP40.

16. The problem is that in 1944 only germans were under siege. So how about an anti siege ability? :
1/2 of supplies can be gained from cut-off territories.

18. "It is just smoke" I saw it on youtube that 2 mortars created a smoke screen and then some flame pioneres atacked at least 2 bofors, trench with tommies and other emplacements. They lost no man!
Smoke is a very underrated ability. Heres another video becouse I couldnt find the one I was talking about. It also shows the real power of smoke.

8. That could work too, but I wouldn't give such ability for free - this is reserved for Red Army. Could be with classic panzerfaust like Volksgrenadiers have.

16. that's true, but I don't know if such thing is possible to implement - gaining resources from cut-off territories. The reason of this ability is to fight resource war. In this case any ability which affect resources gain/loose could be fit in this doctrine. My original idea was also including bombard sounds so it would demoralise the opponent when he heards the distant bombard sounds like when you play vs Russian and hear IL-2 bombers sounds... you freeze in terror and know that something terrible is going to happen

18. well ya, the smoke could be very effective (and it is one of the things I miss playing PE). The truth is that smoke is more offensive than defensive ability, maybe it could be implemented in Maneuver warfare - as ability for Wespe. Instead smoke barrage ability - some defensive ability could be used... just from top of my head:
- concrete reinforcement - all buildings have +20% health
- local builders - player active ability (150 Ammo), repairs all buildings for short period of time (like Field repairs of US-Armor doctr.)
- close quarters combat - units garrisoned in buildings (trenches, bunkers, strongpoints) have 0.9 damage
etc... any ideas?

I will rework some things in my concept later (like some costst, abilities, units), when I receive more feedback to summarize it. I'm glad that someone is interested, because I designed Ostheer as I would like to play it, but for other players it would maybe not fit... I guess it should be some compromise, important is to have fun playing.

[Venoxxis]

overall i can say,
that it looks well planned and well done.

Its also a very nice one to see another concept with some
artwork, which makes your concept really much easier to
read as well. Good work about the artworks man,
especially the first ones are very well done.

Okay on the other hand, there is one major critic point for
me atm.
Too many buildings.
I mean, there is almost no map where you can set all these
buildings man, thats a huge problem.



another major thing:

5. Tiger Heavy tank
- available after Tier3 is build
- until researched Reliability upgrade (100 MP, 30 Fuel)  every Tiger produced has possibility 33% engine breakdown similar to critical hit to engine, which is checked in every 1min. interval, result engine damage can be repaired normally (this is reflecting poor reliability of first vehicles)
- max. 2 Tigers are available in game (3 with Panzergruppe upgrade in ESY)

I mean,
What The Hell IS THAT?

Okay, there are a lot of sources showing the tiger as a
panzer which is high likely to break down.
But if you think about the time every single one of these
were in use, you will think in another way about that.

just comparing T-34 to this tank, t-34 were build and sent right to the front to roll in and to get destroyed.

Tigers were mostly well supported and they drove a lot of kilometers more than the short live russian tanks.

Okay, just form the historical side, this is not okay.


But on the other side, the side of gameplay and funplay this
idea shouldnt even be mentioned.
Players would go crazy if thier tigers would simply break down!

This is a no go man!



Regards,
Venoxxis

[wordsmith]

Okay on the other hand, there is one major critic point for
me atm.
Too many buildings.
I mean, there is almost no map where you can set all these
buildings man, thats a huge problem.

thanks man for the compliments. And to your remarks:

1. buildings - there are 3 tier and 3 special buildings (these should be smaller), from which only 2 could be build at one time, which means 5 buildings maximum. Wehr and US has 5 buildings too. Forward strongpoint is like bunker, can be build everywhere.

2. Tiger breakdown - this "ability" I first designed for Panthers which were known well for reliability problems with first versions. But as I decided not to include Panthers (for obvious reasons - both PE&Wehr has them) in my concept I put it to Tigers.

Tigers were better but still had reliability issues when were first put into combat. I'm not saying that Tigers were faulty tanks. In fact I like Tigers very much, that is why I want them in Ostheer. But it should not be OP.

Breakdown rule I proposed for the sake of balance of course, not for fun playing it - it should make Ostheer player treat Tigers very carefully. It is a handicap vs using 2 or 3 (with upgrade) Tigers at one time in game in comparance to Wehr player who can use only 1 and as a doctrinal unit.

And in conclusion the Breakdown rule could be eliminated with upgrade so I don't think it is a such big problem.

[Venoxxis]

well yea i understand your thinking man.

for the buildings its ok now, but they should be smal thats right.
but hmmh.. i just hope their enough usefull buildings to get therefore.
(no new buildings, for the reason of coding problems)


But the tiger thing, well, just as i said i understand your
way of thinking. But this solution is not the best one man.

I think you should use a solution similiar to lord rommels and mine,
which gives you the tigers only via an upgrade or something like that,
these are a bit weaker than the wehr tiger even with vet,
but you can have 2 of them.


Tank which break down for the reason of nothing are just funplay breakdowns.

[guynumber7]

Luchs and pz3L need an APCR round ability that increses penetrationf or alittle while for ammo.

the "light artillery" can be leg18, which imo should be able to change from mortar mode to gun mode. in mortar mode the shells arc over and it shotos farther, but they move slow. in gun mode its direct fire.

also, if the panzer 4 is ever put in, it needs to be the AUsf F2, a lighter, faster cruiser version with less armor.

[Paciat]

Luchs and pz3L need an APCR round ability that increses penetrationf or alittle while for ammo.

the "light artillery" can be leg18, which imo should be able to change from mortar mode to gun mode. in mortar mode the shells arc over and it shotos farther, but they move slow. in gun mode its direct fire.

also, if the panzer 4 is ever put in, it needs to be the AUsf F2, a lighter, faster cruiser version with less armor.

Luchs would probably be a puma/T-90 with +50HP so it dosnt need AT ability. PzIII is the main tank in this concept so it needs a good (better than Pumas 50mm) gun or/and an ability (ACPR, treadbreaker or my choice - focused fire with a 100% accuracy on tanks even when on the move).

Imo Leg18 shouldnt have a direct fire mode. Fireing mortar barrages and stubby shells is too much for 1 unit.
Just think what if 25lbs could direct fire. It could destroy infantry, artillery, AT guns, light vechicles and even PzIV.
Leg18 should be a very accurate arti that can counter mortars. Range should be the same as UK mortars pits with a supercharge ability (120).

Theres a PzII, PzIIIj, MarderIII(I want a stubby stugIIIe with a gun upgrade instead) and TigerI in this concept.
Theres no room for a 3rd PzIV.

[wordsmith]

Luchs and pz3L need an APCR round ability that increses penetrationf or alittle while for ammo.

PzII should be like slightly better than Armored Car and PzIII should be worse than T34 but better than T70. I think the closest to PzIII design is Hotchkiss tank. For better AT capability there are AT guns, AT infantry and MarderIII (which I'm considering to replace with StugIII f.e. as Paciat suggests) until Tiger hits the field.

This was exactly as it happened during WW2, first the Germans used lots of Light/Medium tanks (like PzIII or IV) but then they encountered some Russian armors T34, KV-1 which were far stronger and Germans had to adapt. And Panthers and Tigers were the answer (among the other heavy AT guns).

In my original concept I had a PzIVF2 but then decided to drop it because Wehr&PE had some version of PzIV too.
Post Merge: March 25, 2010, 09:39:58 AM

But the tiger thing, well, just as i said i understand your
way of thinking. But this solution is not the best one man.

I think you should use a solution similiar to lord rommels and mine,
which gives you the tigers only via an upgrade or something like that,
these are a bit weaker than the wehr tiger even with vet,
but you can have 2 of them.

Tank which break down for the reason of nothing are just funplay breakdowns.

yes I understand too, that it sounds bad when you hear that your Tiger will breakdown for nothing... BUT as I explained:
- the reason is balance (and it is a little historically acurate too)
- it is not a big problem - it can be repaired quickly
- Tiger will still be able to shoot and turn turret
- you just need to be carefull for some time until research Reliability upgr.
- after this upgr. you have no problem

Please try to imagine the situation - you build 2 Tigers, which are good for 1st minute in game and you send them both to combat. The worst thing that could happen is that engine will break after several minutes on both of the Tigers and will be unable to move. But they still will be capable of fight, shooting and turret turning! so if you position them carefully you shouldn't have much troubles. You can have one repair unit (like Pioneer hlaftrack) close to repair engine damage and you are fine. Until you research Reliability upgrade and after then you have 2 fully capable Tigers.

I don't see the difference - you suggest that Tiger should be available after some upgrade, well this is exactly my point too - Tiger (without any faults) will be available after upgrade too.

[Paciat]

PzIII should be worse than T34 but better than T70. I think the closest to PzIII design is Hotchkiss tank.

I think that the PzIII should have PzIV armor (not Hotchkiss) but only 450-500HP.
So PzIII would be a much faster Churchill witch less HP. No fraction has this kind of tank. It would be an ultimate light armor killer.

[Venoxxis]

okay, i simply understood this wrong somehow.
But where do i research it?

I searched your whole concept for this word now, but it
was just found at your tiger tank.

Did you forget to add it into your update hall?
-> there is just the upgrade for the 3 tigers.
this is the place where i was searching for the upgrade
but with no results

- also, 3 tigers are too many.


and by the way,
good work @ your doctrines.
They look tough and well. Also how you build them up
is quite logicially. That makes them really "doctrinal".

Most concepts here dont have such doc's which would fit
in CoH that well.
There are just some things which are too expensive or too
inexpensive, but well thats balance.

the only thing i dont like is the Nashorn, for the reason
of being to similiar to the elefant, just worse armoured.
and for the reason to look just like the hummel.
As other mods showed, thats really boring.


nevertheless good work here